eBay is nastier than I thought...

Pauldog · Post by **Pauldog** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:13 pm

This isn't entirely Off-Topic, since many of us buy (and some sell) shaving things there.

I recently got a 30-day suspension notice from eBay, without enough detail to know for sure why they were doing it.

My best guess is this, but it is a guess, based on reading between the lines of their vague boilerplate text. If I link to Paypal in my auctions, I'm forced to use a commercial or "Premium" Paypal account. That means paying the same fee for taking cash as for cards. (This restriction started some time after eBay bought Paypal.) So what I do instead is say something like this in my auctions: "Write for Paypal instructions." When people ask, I say that I distinguish between card and cash payments, because of the fees. I explain why I don't link to Paypal. I give buyers the option of using cash or card, and paying for the extra charge if they use a card. They can also mail their payment.

I could understand if eBay gave me a warning, and asked me to change how I sell, but instead they swoop in, shut down all my auctions, and send me a vague warning without any specific detail. They mentioned a few generic things that might have caused the suspension, but when I ask for specifics, they claim that "privacy concerns" don't allow them to be specific.

In response to one of my inquiries, I was told that the suspension could be extended, which seems to me to be a veiled threat about my pointing out their high-handed tactics. I replied that the original notice said 30 days, period, no mention of any extensions.

Anyway, now I'm looking for other auction sites. I'm far from the only one to be treated like this. I think our numbers are growing, and eBay may end up being its own worst enemy and helper of its competitors.

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:26 pm

I've seen this before and they usually restore your status before the 30 days. I would call them and find out and raise a little hell. It can't hurt.

J

ScottS · Post by **ScottS** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:29 pm

From the ebay site:

Important: If you offer PayPal as a payment option on eBay (either using logos or text in the item description) you must accept all forms of PayPal payment including account balance, bank account transfer, and credit cards. You must have a Premier or Business PayPal account - or be willing to upgrade from a Personal PayPal account to a Premier or Business account - if you receive a credit card payment. You may not communicate to eBay buyers that you will only accept specific forms of PayPal payment (see PayPal Payments Policy).

You can only take credit cards if you have a premier or business account. Because paypal is talking about privacy, I suspect someone tried to pay by credit card, couldn't, and complained. The thirty day suspension with no explanation does seem harsh, though.

bflotom2 · Post by **bflotom2** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:48 pm

A more gentleman like response to ebay would be to request more information about the problem. If they are not forth coming with the information, suggest that your attorneys may have to get involved to resolve the issue. I for one like to hit boilerplate with more boilerplate.

MOSES · Post by **MOSES** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:58 pm

bflotom2 wrote:A more gentleman like response to ebay would be to request more information about the problem.

It seems pretty clear, if you read Paul's post, that he has already done that, and that they have already refused.

I seriously doubt that threatening to involve lawyers will scare them in the least. It will likely just make the person on the other end more belligerent.

I am guessing Scott is right about the reason.

I suppose they are perfectly legit in demanding that they follow your rules about Paypal. Although it is a little annoying, especially since I think they own Paypal.

This way of going about it, though, is really the problem. That is just downright wrong.

-Mo

Pauldog · Post by **Pauldog** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 6:10 pm

They do own Paypal. After the purchase, they started making the restrictions. They even restrict eBay sellers' ability to mention certain other electronic payment services, even though they are all small potatoes compared with Paypal.

Recently they added another new "feature" to Paypal. I can no longer cancel a card payment made to my cash account, if the payment is listed as being for an eBay item. They want to force me to "upgrade" my account to the fee-based account. (But then I lose my cash account altogether.) So the money has to sit there for 30 days before the buyer can get it back. I try to explain to people not to use a card to pay that account, but they aren't always paying attention to instructions.

I've written back to them several times, with increasing directness about their reasons for the suspension. I also request that they pass the problem to someone higher up who isn't on a strict time and boilerplate quota.

I don't have any polite words for whoever writes their boilerplate verbiage.

The question that I wonder about, too, is how much of the relationship between buyer and seller is "owned" by eBay. If I sell to someone through eBay once, I often sell more to them later by direct means.

My thinking is that e-mail between the buyer and seller is private and none of eBay's business. I have "privacy concerns", too, that are not necessary to reveal to them.

jmhUT · Post by **jmhUT** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 8:14 pm

This is an extension of the Visa and Mastercard "honor all cards rule" in which Visa would force a retailer to take both pin debit cards (low fees) and offline, or signature based debit cards (higher fees to merchants, cash cow for card issuers).

In 1996 Wal Mart, Home Depot, Sears, etc. filed a class action antitrust lawsuit against the associations seeking relief from the honor all cards rule as well as several billion dollars in damages. The night before the trial date in 2003 the associations settled, agreed to rescing the honor all cards rule and pay $3 billion in damages to the retailer.

I was at American Express at the time. We were not part of the action because we did not have debit cards. At that time this issue with PayPal had not yet hit anybody's radar screen, they were still too green. Since then this issue has gotten a little more press in the payments industry. I can't see this practice continuing for too much longer. eBay is a publicly traded company with deep pockets and eventually some enterprising lawyer will nail them. Actually now that I think about it the fact that this is still happening is really odd. There must be a regulatory loophole somewhere.

Doesn't help you today though Paul. Sorry.

fallingwickets · Post by **fallingwickets** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:03 am

Peter Thiel is an absolute genius. When he sold PP to Ebay it was a horrific moment in time, to me anyway. I have refused to use either pp or ebay since the sale. Ebay unfortunately is so entrenched in the minds of the populace that I feel sorry for anyone like yourself who is trying to find somewhere else to go to sell their wares.

Clive

Pauldog · Post by **Pauldog** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:43 pm

Maybe I should find a lawyer who's interested in a case like this. Could be some big bucks there, no harm trying...

In the meantime, eBay loses about $100 in fees from me while I'm suspended...

There are other auction sites of at least moderate size, but surprisingly, there is virtually no choice for e-payments. Some banks have tried to set them up, but none have lasted.

AACJ · Post by **AACJ** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:08 pm

You wouldn't happen to sell any razors that are "Better than new" would you?

ScottS · Post by **ScottS** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:22 pm

There are some other "gotchas" when you read a little deeper. First is the "any payment type" thing that's already come up. Its also against eBay policy to add a specific charge to offset paypal fees (though I don't think its against Paypal policy).

Push comes to shove, these days it seems like you use paypal, or you set up your own shopping cart and arrange for some credit card service provider. For the guy that doesn't do a whole lot of business, the latter route can get very expensive. Actually, its not all that cheap for the small guy, either, but extremely convenient. Also, on EBay, I have, correctly or incorrectly, a pretty negative connotation connected to "no paypal" listings. I generally take this to mean (again, correctly or incorrectly) that there was some conflict that was not pleasantly resolved for all parties.

Ebay and paypal are all about buyer trust, and it doesn't really surprise me that sometimes this comes at the expense of a vendor who hasn't really done anything wrong. Still, the lack of explanation is inexcusable. If they don't tell you what you've been accused of, how can you make sure it doesn't happen again??

JakAHearts · Post by **JakAHearts** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:23 pm

I believe it is always against the "law" to charge peopel for the paypal fees. So Ive been told by many nonebay/nonreliable sources.

tonyespo · Post by **tonyespo** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:26 pm

I avoid sellers that won't take Paypal. When I pay with Paypal it is always with debit from my checking account. I don't do the credit card thing with Paypal. When I sell something on Ebay I want to get paid by Paypal also. If the buyer uses a credit card and I get hit with a fee I consider it all part of doing business on Paypal. I'm not a big seller on Ebay, at this time, but I plan on expanding my selling after I retire this year.

Paul, I think you should look at Yahoo auctions and Amazon selling for back up coverage from Ebay.

Pauldog · Post by **Pauldog** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:19 am

Paypal has two types of account. One type ("personal") can't take cards, and there are no fees. The other type ("commercial" or "premium") can take cards, but it pays fees even for receiving cash payments.

So for eBay to force sellers to be able to take cards with Paypal means that sellers pay fees even for cash payments. This is what I'm balking at. I'm not willing to pay 3% or 4% to take someone's cash, when I've already paid at least a few percent in auction fees.

I'm supposed to roll the extra fees into the price, but I don't have much control over price in a standard auction (and higher shipping prices discourage bidders), and I can't raise prices in fixed price auctions without losing sales.

The problem is that there is almost no competition for Paypal, and only moderate competition for eBay.

I think what they're doing is actually a violation of antitrust law (restraint of trade, illegal business combination, etc.), but try to get that enforced these days! Maybe the tide will turn before too long, though...

MOSES · Post by **MOSES** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 9:22 am

Pauldog wrote:I think what they're doing is actually a violation of antitrust law (restraint of trade, illegal business combination, etc.), but try to get that enforced these days! Maybe the tide will turn before too long, though...

Hmmm..... Interesting. It actually seems possible that you might be right on this. Not sure, of course. I'd love to see someone have a go at it.

At any rate, I feel your pain. It does not seem quite right.

-Mo

Pauldog · Post by **Pauldog** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:52 pm

If someone tries to pay your personal Paypal account with a card, they aren't given a warning. They are given the impression that their payment went through. You (the recipient) get a notice telling you to "upgrade" your account to the commercial/premium kind in order to get the money. Then you would no longer have a personal account, so you'd have to pay fees for any money you get, even cash.

If the payer chose "eBay" as the type of payment, you can't even cancel the payment, and the money stays in limbo for 30 days before the buyer is refunded. If it's not described as an eBay payment, you can cancel the payment.

ScottS wrote:I suspect someone tried to pay by credit card, couldn't, and complained.

Pete · Post by **Pete** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 8:18 pm

Pauldog wrote:If someone tries to pay your personal Paypal account with a card, they aren't given a warning. They are given the impression that their payment went through. You (the recipient) get a notice telling you to "upgrade" your account to the commercial/premium kind in order to get the money. (That would mean that you would no longer have a personal account, so you'd have to pay fees for any money you get, even cash.)

Last month, I sold 5 tubs of C&E Almond to some guys on B&B. While all payments were made via PayPal, I had to pay a fee for only one of the transactions. I am assuming that particular buyer made a credit card payment via PayPal. As you mentioned, I had absolutely no idea I was expected to pay any fees until I made am attempt to move the money into my account. Upon accepting the transfer, I was prompted to upgrade, or pay a percentage (which I did). No notice was given. Doesn't make much sense...

Rocky_Marciano · Post by **Rocky_Marciano** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 9:19 pm

I also got screwed on ebay, I ordered a sabres jersey, guy never mailed it and said he did, so I tried to file a report but that would have costed 25 bucks, and I only paid 30 for the jersey. no more internet buying for me.

Pete · Post by **Pete** » Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:14 am

Thanks for looping the R.J. Umberger hit for me, Rocky...

That was by far the nastiest hit of last season! In fact, I'd go as far as to say I've not seen a hit THIS season that could compare.... or at least not one as clean as that one.

Rocky_Marciano · Post by **Rocky_Marciano** » Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:29 pm

That game was great, definetly the hit of the season IMO, I heard that umberger and campbell are actually buddies, he just wasn't looking up. Too bad you guys had all the coach trouble at the start of this season, they seem to be playing better now though. I ordered a sabres jersey on thanksgiving and I won't be getting it until januaray-febuarary, the stuff is way backordered.