Handgun thread, without the political BS

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Occam
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Post by Occam »

AncientOne wrote:No one is suggesting taking away handguns from law-abiding citizens, I am suggesting taking away handguns from everybody. It is possible to get rid of handguns in the long-run.
Very utopian and naive thinking I'm afraid.

Would you also disarm police and banish the military?

Humans are what they are. The potential of lethal force exists as a real thing with or without guns. You can't change the nature of humankind as a whole. And therefore we'll always need ways to wield lethal force and guns are just one part.

Even in the world as it was without guns, there were swords and knives. Get rid of those and I'll show you screwdrivers and clubs that can also kill a man. I hope you get the point.
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mistercoffee
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Post by mistercoffee »

I just got involved with guns about a year ago. Prior to then, I'd never seen, held, or shot a gun of any type. I now own 9 guns: 5 semiauto pistols, a revolver, and 2 rifles (.22 and a 5.56).

I got into competitive shooting (IPSC, IDPA) and have learned so much, it's almost unbelievable to me. I take 2 lessons a week, and practice my dry fire drills 2-3 times on top of that.

2 years ago, I would've agreed that guns don't belong in our society. But after I took classes, started sport shooting, and have become proactively involved with them, I realized that guns aren't scary - uninformed, knee-jerk reactive people are scary.

I would never dream of hunting, and I hope that I never encounter a situation where I'd actually need to use my gun for anything other than competition. But I'm glad that I have them. Shortly after I earned my concealed carry license, I learned that more than 600,000 people in my state have a concealed license. I was shocked! I had no idea that nearly 25% of our state could walk around armed if they so chose to be...

Two articles for your consideration:

http://www.newsweek.com/id/72034

And one that was sent to me via e-mail:
History of Gun Control Whether you agree or not, it's an interesting lesson in history.

In reaction to the Virginia Tech shootings... Rather than declare the shooter as "nuts," some in Congress want everybody to give up their firearms in violation of the 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution. Below are an examples of what happened when governments confiscated privately held firearms.

Something to think about...

In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.

In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Cambodia established gun control in 1956.. From 1975 to 1977, one million 'educated' people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.

Australia

It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by their own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars.

The first year results are now in:

Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent

Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent

Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent
-- yes, 44 percent!

In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent. Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not, and criminals still possess their guns!

While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, since criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed.

There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the ELDERLY. Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public safety has decreased, after such monumental effort and expense was expended in successfully ridding Australian society of guns. The Australian experience and the other historical facts above prove it.
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Bowcephalus
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Post by Bowcephalus »

It is in essence an issue of personal responsibility....The tyrant always, beginning with a concerted propaganda campaign, relieves the citizen of his personal responsibility prior to relieving him of a portion of his spirit, his property, and then his life......It takes a concerted effort by the citizen to keep the tyrant in check,but that has been the one indespensible trait of free men throughout history....Human nature,imbedded in the genetic code, makes it so..Some are easy in the harness, others make a choice not to be...With the morning's first cup of coffee I offer a toast to the latter.....
Jim-OK
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Post by Jim-OK »

Well, this topic has made me break my silence on this forum. It was nice just being a lurker.

It is asinine to believe that you could ever get all handguns away from criminals. Murder, rape, robbery, etc. are already crimes. If you honestly believe that someone that is willing to commit these crimes would turn in their weapons because they are now illegal then you simply do not have the ability to understand the criminal mindset.

The notion that guns would wear out over time is laughable at best. I personally own a pistol that was a Marine Corps issued pistol in World War I. It doesn't just sit on a shelf, it finds its way to the range several times each year. But, that is nothing when compared to the firearms that some people use.

There is a "loophole" in the laws that allow antique firearms to be sold with no background check or other impediments. An antique firearm is defined as:
Antique firearms are defined as: any firearm with a frame or receiver manufactured in or before 1898 regardless of ignition system, or any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system, and any replica of an antique firearm if the replica is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire ammunition, or uses fixed ammunition, which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels or commercial trade, any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition.
Those firearms manufactured prior to 1898 still function quite well. Any trip to a Cowboy Action Shooting (SASS) shooting competition will show that many are still being shot, and shot often. They are will over 100 years old and still function fine. Chances are great that they will still be working 100 years from now.

Further, age would never make a firearm quit working. It is a function of rounds fired that will eventually cause a modern firearm to fail. But, the higher quality guns would last several generations of criminal activity. About a year ago I sold a Glock pistol that I had owned for about 5 years. I had personally fired over 15,000 rounds through the pistol without a malfunction. The new owner uses it as I did, as a competition gun. He has also sent several thousand rounds through it without problem.

Criminals will always have guns, period. As such, it only makes sense to allow law abiding citizens to defend themselves. And, the statistics show that it works. Lott and Mustard, two economists at the University of Chicago used the FBI's Uniform Crime Report to track violent crime at the county and statewide level. They found that county level violent crime dropped 4.9% in states that allow concealed carry of firearms. Murder was down 7.75%, rape down 5.27% and aggravated assault was down 7.01%. {"Crime, Deterrence, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns", Lott, John R., and Mustard, David B.
J. of Legal Studies, vol.26, n.1, pp.1-68 (Jan. 1997)}

If we were to not only stop allowing people to carry firearms, but to take them from individuals, the evidence shows that these violent crime rates would climb dramatically. It would cost needless innocent lives, but hey- it would make some people "feel good" because they passed a law saying guns are evil.

To the author of the original post, I apologize for helping to take this further off track. But all it takes is one rude individual to decide to hijack a thread. Sadly, one person in this thread has shown they care more about spreading their anti-gun beliefs than allowing an intelligent conversation to take place.
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drmoss_ca
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Post by drmoss_ca »

Once again, gentlemen, may I ask you all keep your discourse civil? Otherwise I shall have to change the name of the thread.

Chris
With Added BS.
"Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothèse."
Pierre-Simon de Laplace
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