I just don't know what to do right now. And don't know where to turn so I come back to you guys for hopefully sound advice.
I have been married for 8 years have 2 girls 6 and 8. I love my wife very much, I don't love everything about her but I do love her. Things have not been great between us but, I made a commitment and plan to stick by it, if not for us then for the girls.
She has a who I thought was an old friend, I met him 10 or more years ago when he met us camping with his girlfriend. He has since married and has 2 kids about 4 and 6. He even came to our house 4-5 years ago with his wife. She had said they never really dated they were just friends. I did not question it, I have old female friends and old girlfriends too.
I knew they kept close contact and to tell you the truth it did bother me a bit. Especially when he bought her a $350 coach bag for her 40th birthday 3 years ago. But I gave her/them the benefit of the doubt. That was until earlier tonight.
I used her email to see some pictures that a photographer emailed to us. She had emailed them to me but she was logged on to the computer, so I just used her account. There were no emails from him but I did click on the drafts and found a email my wife drafted for him. I probably shouldn't have but I did.
The draft read "Wishing you were here to lay my head on your shoulder. " and " well, eventually Charles and Camilla got together" and "Part of me thinks that I am falling out of love with you. Don't get me wrong. You will always be my friend and I will always love you, but I am realizing (in both my heart and head) some limitations. This is always difficult."."
There was other stuff but I think you get the gist. I am at such a loss. I set up a gmail account so I will get all her mail hopefully without her knowing. I don't feel right doing this but I need to know. I don't want to just confront her with it until I know more. Her mom is visiting right now. So tonight I only have you guys. Just Saturday she got a small package from him, I asked her what it was she said just a Lucy Ball sound card, but never produced the card. I think tomorow I will ask her about him without letting her know I saw the draft to get her reaction.
Any advice?
Am I totally wrong to try to intercept her email?
Please give me any thoughts or feelings you may have.
Need help, turn to the comfort of strangers
As a stranger, I can only say, my heart is with you.
I can't even imagine how you feel right now. I've had girlfriends in questionable relationships with other men, but my wife...my heart quails at the thought.
I would say that, given the nature of the emails you DID see, wanting to know more is only normal. But you have to honestly answer the question for yourself, and this is a toughie: Do you really, REALLY want to know more? And, when you do know more, will it do you good?
All I can say is that, in your position, I would not have acted nearly as thoughtfully or calmly, but having acted as you did, I think you now should think about the real outcomes of your choices, and only you know which outcome you can accept.
I can only hope, beyond any reason perhaps, that the words you saw were some mistake...
I can't even imagine how you feel right now. I've had girlfriends in questionable relationships with other men, but my wife...my heart quails at the thought.
I would say that, given the nature of the emails you DID see, wanting to know more is only normal. But you have to honestly answer the question for yourself, and this is a toughie: Do you really, REALLY want to know more? And, when you do know more, will it do you good?
All I can say is that, in your position, I would not have acted nearly as thoughtfully or calmly, but having acted as you did, I think you now should think about the real outcomes of your choices, and only you know which outcome you can accept.
I can only hope, beyond any reason perhaps, that the words you saw were some mistake...
Don't go behind her back about anything. Explain how you found the info and ask her for clarification. Try not to come across as aggressive or confrontational. It sounds bad from what you've told us, but we know less than you know, and you only know part of the story, even based on what you've told us. You have to bring it up or it will cause more problems in the relationship and you will be exceptionally miserable. Look at how you feel now and how you've acted in the relationship so far and you know that's true. Just tell her you were concerned about something, that you were using her email since it was already signed in. So you looked around out of curiosity, saw these emails, and would like clarification. If she gets defensive, that still doesn't mean much, so stay calm and use what you know about her to reassure her that you just want clarification on the situation. If it comes up, be willing to be open about things like your own insecurities about the relationship, how you feel about her, etc.
If worse comes to worse, and you can't get into a real conversation about it, suggest talking to a professional counselor together purely for the purpose of facilitating and arbitrating conversation. In fact, if things are as apathetic/rough as you suggest, that could be a good option anyway. Proper marriage counselors are trained to allow both of you to express how you're feeling. Maybe there's things there you just aren't aware of and she views things less negatively than do you. Maybe she is having an affair, and a counselor could present a safe place for such to come out into the open. Even if that's the case, it doesn't have to be the end of a relationship, but open honesty is the only thing that will save it at that point.
There's too many potential complications and explanations to everything around this situation for you to make a snap judgment on it. To sum up, stay calm and non-confrontational. Don't spy, keep dialogue open without arguing or bringing up any old transgressions, and see a counselor if need be.
If worse comes to worse, and you can't get into a real conversation about it, suggest talking to a professional counselor together purely for the purpose of facilitating and arbitrating conversation. In fact, if things are as apathetic/rough as you suggest, that could be a good option anyway. Proper marriage counselors are trained to allow both of you to express how you're feeling. Maybe there's things there you just aren't aware of and she views things less negatively than do you. Maybe she is having an affair, and a counselor could present a safe place for such to come out into the open. Even if that's the case, it doesn't have to be the end of a relationship, but open honesty is the only thing that will save it at that point.
There's too many potential complications and explanations to everything around this situation for you to make a snap judgment on it. To sum up, stay calm and non-confrontational. Don't spy, keep dialogue open without arguing or bringing up any old transgressions, and see a counselor if need be.
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Boyextraordinare
No, no, no, you need to know - but by no means be direct.
Play it cool, play it dumb. Keep up on the spying.
At best, she has an "emotional friend;" at worst, she's cheating.
Don't confront her directly; she'll get mad at your prying and like you less for it.
Keep it low key and carry on with the email reading, which, in this case, is absolutely warranted.
Talking to her openly about it will just get more of the same: her playing the nature of her and this man's relationship down. What do you expect her to do? Flat out say, "I'm cheating on you" - if indeed she is? Very unlikely.
You've access to her email so you have a huge advantage here. Don't mess it up!
I feel for you, though. I've been cheated on as well as had suspicions. Keep the upper-hand here by staying sly.
Play it cool, play it dumb. Keep up on the spying.
At best, she has an "emotional friend;" at worst, she's cheating.
Don't confront her directly; she'll get mad at your prying and like you less for it.
Keep it low key and carry on with the email reading, which, in this case, is absolutely warranted.
Talking to her openly about it will just get more of the same: her playing the nature of her and this man's relationship down. What do you expect her to do? Flat out say, "I'm cheating on you" - if indeed she is? Very unlikely.
You've access to her email so you have a huge advantage here. Don't mess it up!
I feel for you, though. I've been cheated on as well as had suspicions. Keep the upper-hand here by staying sly.
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Oldsmoothie
- Posts: 240
- Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:47 am
- Location: Greater Manchester, UK
NickNcut: Don't feel alone in this. You have friends here who have given you some good advice. I also have had problems like yours in the past but you need to know the truth and then you can go forward. I agree with JimR and Timpak on this one so I won't reiterate what they have said. In whatever you do I think that calmness and patience, and yes love, are important.
David
David
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fallingwickets
- Clive the Thumb
- Posts: 8813
- Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:59 am
357 thumbs up on what Tim said. Idon't have any idea about what being married is about, but I have close friends who have been through this and those that went Tim's way are for the most part happier now than before compared to those that went the other way
Where are the docs when you need them?
Clive
Where are the docs when you need them?
Clive
de gustibus non est disputandum
Sooner or later, an honest open discussion will need to happen between you two about what's really going on. Now that you have read her emails, it might have to be sooner. Approach it calmly and do not in any way take an accusatory tone. How she reacts will tell you a lot. It may create a lot of tension for a while, but all relationships undergo those phases. I wish you luck and only hope for the best.
Thank you for your sound advice. I guess I knew the spying wasn't right, that is probably one of the reasons I post I posted here, I had to hear it from others. I really want information though, but I guess that is not the way to get it.
She has just completed an out patient program for clinical depression. I think it is truely a mental condition not just guilt or something. It was intensive 4 days a week 6 hours a day. She has not worked in two months. I am concerned how that factors into this. I don't know if she could handle marrage couseling right now.
I take commitment seriously. And don't even want to consider divorce, if it comes to that. I will do anything for my kids. The older girl has high fuctioning autism. I can't imagine what a divorce would do to her.
I just feel my whole world is falling apart. I am still dealing with my mom's sudden death in July. I am concerned about my work going bankrupt, and it is a rather special field that I could not find any other work in the area, it is all I have ever done. I have lived here 10 years and have almost no one I would call a friend. My old buddies live 200 miles away. I am just unsure about everything in my entire life. I am going to need some help to get through this. I think that will be todays project.
Eric
She has just completed an out patient program for clinical depression. I think it is truely a mental condition not just guilt or something. It was intensive 4 days a week 6 hours a day. She has not worked in two months. I am concerned how that factors into this. I don't know if she could handle marrage couseling right now.
I take commitment seriously. And don't even want to consider divorce, if it comes to that. I will do anything for my kids. The older girl has high fuctioning autism. I can't imagine what a divorce would do to her.
I just feel my whole world is falling apart. I am still dealing with my mom's sudden death in July. I am concerned about my work going bankrupt, and it is a rather special field that I could not find any other work in the area, it is all I have ever done. I have lived here 10 years and have almost no one I would call a friend. My old buddies live 200 miles away. I am just unsure about everything in my entire life. I am going to need some help to get through this. I think that will be todays project.
Eric
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Oldsmoothie
- Posts: 240
- Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:47 am
- Location: Greater Manchester, UK
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wenestvedt
- Posts: 1981
- Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 5:37 pm
- Location: Rhode Island
I am sorry to hear of your situation -- not fun, and not easy to deal with.
Spying notwithstanding - you do need to know where your relationship stands as a husband. How you determine that is something you will need to work out yourself.
For reasons such as this, my wife and I have always been very very careful about seemingly innocent friendships with members of the opposite sex -- our relationship is far too important to take any unnecessary risks. Call me a prude, but I won't even ride in a car alone with a member of the opposite sex unless it's immediate family and my wife does likewise. It's simply our way of preventing the possible. Not to say we don't associate with men and women on our own -- we are both just very, very cautious in the way we maintain such relationships.
Spying notwithstanding - you do need to know where your relationship stands as a husband. How you determine that is something you will need to work out yourself.
For reasons such as this, my wife and I have always been very very careful about seemingly innocent friendships with members of the opposite sex -- our relationship is far too important to take any unnecessary risks. Call me a prude, but I won't even ride in a car alone with a member of the opposite sex unless it's immediate family and my wife does likewise. It's simply our way of preventing the possible. Not to say we don't associate with men and women on our own -- we are both just very, very cautious in the way we maintain such relationships.
Eric,
I strongly encourage you to have a calm, loving, compassionate, understanding, heart-to-heart talk with your wife. Tell her everything that's going on. Even if the worse you suspect is true, there are couples that survive through it and go on to have very happy and strong marriages. I know it's tough - I've been there with quite a few - but hang in there. Find someone who you can talk to, and I highly recommend the two of you go to counseling together.
If you wish, I'd be happy to exchange PMs, emails, chat, or talk on the phone with you. I am a pastor and have talked couples going through rough spots - it's your call (no offense if you don't either or decide to stop at any point).
Praying for you, your wife, and your family,
Michael
I strongly encourage you to have a calm, loving, compassionate, understanding, heart-to-heart talk with your wife. Tell her everything that's going on. Even if the worse you suspect is true, there are couples that survive through it and go on to have very happy and strong marriages. I know it's tough - I've been there with quite a few - but hang in there. Find someone who you can talk to, and I highly recommend the two of you go to counseling together.
If you wish, I'd be happy to exchange PMs, emails, chat, or talk on the phone with you. I am a pastor and have talked couples going through rough spots - it's your call (no offense if you don't either or decide to stop at any point).
Praying for you, your wife, and your family,
Michael
Blessings,
Michael
Michael
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fallingwickets
- Clive the Thumb
- Posts: 8813
- Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:59 am
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Zach
Eric, here's what I think:
People make mistakes; your wife made a mistake.
It sounds like you're more than willing to forgive her, and it might just be that (unless she's being passive aggressive) she understands that she made a mistake as well, falling out of love with this guy.
I had a very close friend that I considered a brother; he was married and the 4 of us (my wife) would spend almost every Friday night together. We really were like brothers, we looked alike even. I was there till 3AM when his son was born; I babysat his 2 babies (one a newborn) when his father in law passed away and everyone was waking, for a week; I installed the floor in his basement in time for his son's first birthday party, for a week, 6pm till midnight; blah blah blah, you get the story, this was my brother!
And one day (before my wife and I had kids, and she worked in Manhattan at an investment bank) he and she had lunch, at his request; he compared his wife's failings to my wife, told her how attractive she was and how she looked after herself, unlike his wife, blah blah blah.
But he didn't tell me any of this.
My wife did, though.
She's old school, like me (and like Wendell apparently is; good for you Wendell).
I alluded to my friend 'so what did you do yesterday' and he glossed over the part about dinner with my wife. Long story short, your "friend" should never put you in a situation to ever even have to GUESS what their intentions are, and we stopped being friends.
It took 10 years, but I forgave him. The death of a mutual friend brought us together. My wife won't see him, she's not comfortable, and so our kids won't know each other, but we have the phone exchange, the email jokes thing, and the occasional drink or dinner.
Why? Because he really was my brother, and he made a mistake, and I forgave him; and no one is more aware of that and more thankful than he is.
So, my advice:
Your wife made a mistake; she's at a certain age, you know. And she's having a hard time as it is. You are going to forgive her, you know that already. So stop procrastinating, tell her everything you know and how you came about knowing it, and tell her you understand, and that you forgive her. See where that takes you.
Good luck, buddy.
People make mistakes; your wife made a mistake.
It sounds like you're more than willing to forgive her, and it might just be that (unless she's being passive aggressive) she understands that she made a mistake as well, falling out of love with this guy.
I had a very close friend that I considered a brother; he was married and the 4 of us (my wife) would spend almost every Friday night together. We really were like brothers, we looked alike even. I was there till 3AM when his son was born; I babysat his 2 babies (one a newborn) when his father in law passed away and everyone was waking, for a week; I installed the floor in his basement in time for his son's first birthday party, for a week, 6pm till midnight; blah blah blah, you get the story, this was my brother!
And one day (before my wife and I had kids, and she worked in Manhattan at an investment bank) he and she had lunch, at his request; he compared his wife's failings to my wife, told her how attractive she was and how she looked after herself, unlike his wife, blah blah blah.
But he didn't tell me any of this.
My wife did, though.
She's old school, like me (and like Wendell apparently is; good for you Wendell).
I alluded to my friend 'so what did you do yesterday' and he glossed over the part about dinner with my wife. Long story short, your "friend" should never put you in a situation to ever even have to GUESS what their intentions are, and we stopped being friends.
It took 10 years, but I forgave him. The death of a mutual friend brought us together. My wife won't see him, she's not comfortable, and so our kids won't know each other, but we have the phone exchange, the email jokes thing, and the occasional drink or dinner.
Why? Because he really was my brother, and he made a mistake, and I forgave him; and no one is more aware of that and more thankful than he is.
So, my advice:
Your wife made a mistake; she's at a certain age, you know. And she's having a hard time as it is. You are going to forgive her, you know that already. So stop procrastinating, tell her everything you know and how you came about knowing it, and tell her you understand, and that you forgive her. See where that takes you.
Good luck, buddy.
The depression would certainly make things difficult, but could potentially be directly affecting the situation itself. If you can get through an initial conversation with her to try and get a few things out in the open, you may be able to get a better feel for the interaction of these two factors in determining whether to work it out together or to seek counseling. And if you're religious, it's possible that a pastor or someone who's less "psychologist" could be a more comfortable fit in working to facilitate conversation if need be. Other similar resources on a community level could be highly beneficial if you decide an actual counselor may be too uncomfortable. That being said, if she was very comfortable with the particular therapist, he may comfortable working with you as a couple or she may trust a recommendation of his for someone better suited to working with couples. These are definite areas of strength to look for in approaching the situation and, obviously, if things are brought out in the open the way myself and others have suggested, it may be that she's willing to be open and honest about it and get things resolved without a third party. Certainly less costly, but then again, hard to put a price on optimizing such an important relationship.
Oh, and so you know, I'm currently working toward my MA in Counseling. I'm not focusing in marriage and family therapy, but have studied it a fair bit, have a small amount of experience engaging with couples, and work with a professor who has provided great insight into similar situations. This does not mean I'm right; after all, I'm still a student in the field. If it helps you to feel more comfortable, however, what I'm saying is based on experience, research, and observation and, as noted, several others here have supported similar next steps. Your desire to make things work regardless of what may or may not have happened is to be commended, especially with the family and issues with autism in your daughter. I have direct experience working with high and low functioning autism throughout various age ranges and it's tough. You're right that you've had to deal with a lot. Those general stressors combined with work worries and your mom dying are tough. I'm sure that, besides, feeling like things are falling apart, you feel lost. You have few supports in regard to person friends readily at hand. So I'd like you to consider other potential supports as I suggested from the community in which you live, even if they aren't specifically friends. Maybe you aren't religious, but if you have a spiritual belief that's similar to a common religion, you still may be able to speak to someone in a position of spiritual authority, regardless of whether or not you fully agree with the particular religion to gain guidance and insight. It sounds like you have some good things going for you, so look for something that can help you build on those, begin talking to your wife in a non-confrontational manner, and go from there.
Oh, and so you know, I'm currently working toward my MA in Counseling. I'm not focusing in marriage and family therapy, but have studied it a fair bit, have a small amount of experience engaging with couples, and work with a professor who has provided great insight into similar situations. This does not mean I'm right; after all, I'm still a student in the field. If it helps you to feel more comfortable, however, what I'm saying is based on experience, research, and observation and, as noted, several others here have supported similar next steps. Your desire to make things work regardless of what may or may not have happened is to be commended, especially with the family and issues with autism in your daughter. I have direct experience working with high and low functioning autism throughout various age ranges and it's tough. You're right that you've had to deal with a lot. Those general stressors combined with work worries and your mom dying are tough. I'm sure that, besides, feeling like things are falling apart, you feel lost. You have few supports in regard to person friends readily at hand. So I'd like you to consider other potential supports as I suggested from the community in which you live, even if they aren't specifically friends. Maybe you aren't religious, but if you have a spiritual belief that's similar to a common religion, you still may be able to speak to someone in a position of spiritual authority, regardless of whether or not you fully agree with the particular religion to gain guidance and insight. It sounds like you have some good things going for you, so look for something that can help you build on those, begin talking to your wife in a non-confrontational manner, and go from there.
If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...
Just from the small amount of information in the the emails you divulged to us, it is evident this is an ongoing thing, probably for quite a while. These guys who have never been there and been through it are just trying to help, but they do not understand the complete and utter despair/hopelessness you feel right now.
You have a right to know.
You deserve to know.
You might not like what you find out, (more than likely you won't like it at ALL) but you must have full discovery of everything to stand any chance of reconciliation. Keep up the spying -- it's the only way you'll ever get the full story. Your wife won't tell you the whole story... there's already a vast amount of evidence that something is deeply, seriously wrong in your relationship.
In order for the two of you to work on it, and come out the other side stronger and more in love than ever before, there can't be any other distractions. You must know everything you want to know, and she cannot be trusted to reveal it to you herself. Keep up the covert investigations -- although you'll probably end up feeling a lot worse before it's all said and done.
Protect yourself, protect your children. As tough as it is to hear right now, you must prepare for the worst.
I've been there -- I know. Here's a link that will help you. It's helped countless others in similar situations:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com
Just from the small amount of information in the the emails you divulged to us, it is evident this is an ongoing thing, probably for quite a while. These guys who have never been there and been through it are just trying to help, but they do not understand the complete and utter despair/hopelessness you feel right now.
You have a right to know.
You deserve to know.
You might not like what you find out, (more than likely you won't like it at ALL) but you must have full discovery of everything to stand any chance of reconciliation. Keep up the spying -- it's the only way you'll ever get the full story. Your wife won't tell you the whole story... there's already a vast amount of evidence that something is deeply, seriously wrong in your relationship.
In order for the two of you to work on it, and come out the other side stronger and more in love than ever before, there can't be any other distractions. You must know everything you want to know, and she cannot be trusted to reveal it to you herself. Keep up the covert investigations -- although you'll probably end up feeling a lot worse before it's all said and done.
Protect yourself, protect your children. As tough as it is to hear right now, you must prepare for the worst.
I've been there -- I know. Here's a link that will help you. It's helped countless others in similar situations:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com
Jason
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Zach
Not to trivialize anything you've gone through, Jason, but why not just assume the worst, and forgive her anyway?Baloosh wrote:As tough as it is to hear right now, you must prepare for the worst.
Unless of course you mean that if you wanted to "win" in a divorce, and get everything possible, including custody, then start accumulating evidence?
With all due respect, you may be right, who's to know what is in her head and in her heart, but in YOUR heart, Eric, you have to keep that clean, honest and open, and you can't do that while spying. If you approach this from a self protective perspective, you will protect yourself, but you might just end up destroying your marriage in the process. One must wager a lot in this situation, and be able to sacrifice what might have been.
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JakAHearts
- Posts: 220
- Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 9:39 pm
- Location: Silver Spring, MD
Id listen to this guy. He seems like a straight shooter.southpaw wrote:Eric,
I strongly encourage you to have a calm, loving, compassionate, understanding, heart-to-heart talk with your wife. Tell her everything that's going on. Even if the worse you suspect is true, there are couples that survive through it and go on to have very happy and strong marriages. I know it's tough - I've been there with quite a few - but hang in there. Find someone who you can talk to, and I highly recommend the two of you go to counseling together.
If you wish, I'd be happy to exchange PMs, emails, chat, or talk on the phone with you. I am a pastor and have talked couples going through rough spots - it's your call (no offense if you don't either or decide to stop at any point).
Praying for you, your wife, and your family,
Michael
Shane
Understood, but his question and/or dilemma is not whether or not to forgive. It's "what to do" at this point. He'll get very wide, very diverse answers -- mine (and yours) is simply one perspective. Ultimately he'll have to follow what his conscience will allow.Zach wrote:Not to trivialize anything you've gone through, Jason, but why not just assume the worst, and forgive her anyway?Baloosh wrote:As tough as it is to hear right now, you must prepare for the worst.
Unless we're talking about a case of abuse, there are no "winners" in a divorce... despite what television/society claims.Zach wrote: Unless of course you mean that if you wanted to "win" in a divorce, and get everything possible, including custody, then start accumulating evidence?
No offense taken at all -- believe me. I know this is a touchy subject, and one that a lot of guys take to heart (as well they should). And I realize that in this (pretty much) pro-traditional family atmosphere of this board, and the "gentlemanly" way of dealing with issues both large and small, I can see where my opinion might not gel 100% with the way you're "supposed" to handle these types of situations. I value and respect everyone's opinion who chooses to weigh in on this one.Zach wrote: With all due respect, you may be right, who's to know what is in her head and in her heart, but in YOUR heart, Eric, you have to keep that clean, honest and open, and you can't do that while spying. If you approach this from a self protective perspective, you will protect yourself, but you might just end up destroying your marriage in the process. One must wager a lot in this situation, and be able to sacrifice what might have been.
And despite any of our disagreements, I trust and hope that the OP will do what's best for both himself and his daughters in the long run. None of us can say what that is... but we can all wish him the best of whatever comes.
Jason
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Zach
Jason, yeah, I agree with no winners in a divorce, 101%, which is why I put "win" in quotes.
Respectfully, I also add that I understand that his dilemma is "what to do" and I offer that the answer is "forgive".
And I also agree with you, this (mine) is just one man's opinion. Yours is a valid opinion about what to do in such a difficult situation given by a man who has felt this pain; I have not; your opinion therefore carries more weight with the logical mind.
However, I offer that I 'know' who I am and what I am capable of, and I get a sense that I might understand Eric, though I likely have only the slightest understanding. If it were me, there would be no point in protecting myself, because if my "house" (as the Greeks say) were to dissolve, it would destroy me with it.
I didn't feel this way before I had kids, but now, I'm "all in".
Respectfully, I also add that I understand that his dilemma is "what to do" and I offer that the answer is "forgive".
And I also agree with you, this (mine) is just one man's opinion. Yours is a valid opinion about what to do in such a difficult situation given by a man who has felt this pain; I have not; your opinion therefore carries more weight with the logical mind.
However, I offer that I 'know' who I am and what I am capable of, and I get a sense that I might understand Eric, though I likely have only the slightest understanding. If it were me, there would be no point in protecting myself, because if my "house" (as the Greeks say) were to dissolve, it would destroy me with it.
I didn't feel this way before I had kids, but now, I'm "all in".