SMF

So as part of my other post involving the Hyundai dealership...

I always try to buy domestic when I can. GM, Ford or Chrysler seem to be our only options in the mainstream.

When we shopped for a car last time, we had a pretty good idea what we were looking for. Mileage, warranty, price and features.

Lisa didn't want a Ford, because although the Focus was the right size, our best friends just bought one and she didn't like it.
Chrysler really didn't have anything we were interested in.

That left GM. They have the Chevy Cruze and the Buick Verano. Problem is, I still have a sour taste in my mouth about their government bailout.

Hence the Hyundai. Great mileage, great looks, right size, fits our budget.

So, since I'm thinking about trading the Hyundai because I have less faith in the dealership, how do I get over this GM bailout thing?
Granted, if GM would have gone out of business, the auto industry would have been set on it's ear. Lots of folks would have been out of a job. I would hate that.
But I also don't like the thought of our government getting involved and spending MY tax money to fix a problem that was none of my doing. And I don't think it's paid back.

So do I treat the bailout as an investment? Do I stay pissed at them and never buy a GM product again? Do I take it for what it's worth and move on knowing I would love to buy a non-import.

Thoughts?

It was a loan, and it's been largely repaid. For better or worse, you don't get to pick and choose how tax dollars are spent.

Umm, no it hasn't been repaid. They just cooking the books and are calling it repaid.

But to go further requires getting into politics and I won't go there. In fact this will be my last post on the subject. I won't be drawn in further.

I would just say that it would be quite a shock to American pride if we lost our auto industry, and we came too close to it. It would also take a lot of people down with it. I get that the industry was mismanaged and, in a sense, "deserved" to fail, but it would seem that the wake-up call has been heeded and we are seeing good product and better profits. I'm relieved to see Ford and GM remain as our mainstays, and FIAT has done well for Chrysler.

- Murray

Where do you draw the line at which businesses or industries you won't support because they've received some assistance from the government? Chrysler was bailed out in the 1970's, so scratch buying from them. The banks have all been bailed out, so scratch having a checking or savings account. Wall Street has been massively bailed out, so no 401K or investments. The mortgage industry was bailed out, so scratch carrying a mortgage on your house. New York City was bailed out by the feds in the 70's, so forget traveling there. The airline industry was bailed out by the government after 9/11, so forget flying anywhere. The agricultural industry receives some of the largest federal subsidies of any industry, so you better start growing your own food....

See where this leads? The free market is a myth, every aspect of our economy is impacted by government policies, regulations, and interventions. The only way to avoid it is to live off of the grid entirely.

I tend to look at what I believe is the best product for the budget I have to spend. US cars are much better then they were many years ago -- and even recent models are quite an improvement looking at the last decade or so. The Cruze is actually a very good driving car, that is if you can get past the downright dry and boring looks -- which for some folks doesn't even play into things. Offerings from Ford have improved as well and Chrysler's Journey is a top seller (although I don't know what resale and long-term reliability is like on it).

But -- as the North American industry has improved, so, in some ways has the foreign industry. Although one might argue that recent recalls from mighty Honda and Toyota could suggest a chink in the armour there. VW has made improvements on their QA.

I suspect that many of the car manufacturers have had local government involvement at some time or another. I'd worry less about the politics of the bailouts and more about how reliable their vehicles are because bailout or not, if you get a crummy car, you aren't going to be happy in the end.

Just to add my largely uninformed .02:

When it comes to trying to buy domestic, you might want to think about where the money's actually going. I have no idea how Hyundai structures things, but I'm willing to bet a fair bit of your purchase price would stay in the US (especially in manufacturing - Toyota has a big presence in my original hometown, and the folks there couldn't be happier at people buying Toyotas). It may end up you can help the American economy almost, or just as, much by purchasing whichever car you like regardless of its brand.

Most foreign makers now manufacture many of their models here in the US, many will state a US content for parts and components. While being foreign in ownership with domestic factories really blurs the line.

SWMBO and I haven't bought a car made by the three American manufacturers in 25 years, due poor quality and uncertain reliability. I'm told that GM and Ford have narrowed the gap, but we're not prepared to change at this time as we've been very happy with our Toyotas, Lexus and BMWs over the last 25 years. We've just replaced SWMBO's 14 year old Lexus with an Audi; the Lexus has gone to one of our sons and should be good for another 5 years. Basically that's what we want, a car/SUV that'll last us a good 10-15 years. Our other cars are a 10 year old Lexus and an 8 year old BMW, both of which are a joy to drives; can't say that about our last Olds and Pontiac.

Craig_From_Cincy wrote:Where do you draw the line at which businesses or industries you won't support because they've received some assistance from the government?

+1

And ... there are other forms of assistance (such as contracts to develop things, etc.) that haven't been mentioned.

I'd suggest that you get past it if buying domestic will also coincides with a car that meets your needs.

If domestic offerings don't meet your criteria, don't worry about it - that's the power of Capitalism, you get to vote with your dollar. If the domestic manufacturers don't meet your needs, they can adapt or die.

Politically, the US auto maker issue is a double-edged sword.

Provide these 3 companies massive tax funded breaks/hand-outs and they employ thousands of North Americans - directly or indirectly. Dismiss these breaks and there is no sane financial reason to keep the doors open on a single North American auto manufacturing facility.

As long as the Big 3 unionized line workers are being paid $80-100k per year (add 20+% when considering pensions & benefits) when the very same employees cost <$30k per year in other countries, there will be all kinds of political, business, and moral issues to debate.

On my side of the debate, I will remain with Toyota & Honda as long as my cars are manufactured in North America.

I buy what suits me without making a political statement.

RazorRamone wrote:Politically, the US auto maker issue is a double-edged sword.

Provide these 3 companies massive tax funded breaks/hand-outs and they employ thousands of North Americans - directly or indirectly. Dismiss these breaks and there is no sane financial reason to keep the doors open on a single North American auto manufacturing facility.

As long as the Big 3 unionized line workers are being paid $80-100k per year (add 20+% when considering pensions & benefits) when the very same employees cost <$30k per year in other countries, there will be all kinds of political, business, and moral issues to debate.

On my side of the debate, I will remain with Toyota & Honda as long as my cars are manufactured in North America.

This isn't the case any longer. The labor cost difference between unionized GM and non-unionized Toyota is three dollars per hour, on average:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-1 ... yhq0x.html

If I were in your shoes I would follow Wendell's advice and find the car that best meets your budget and use requirements and keep the politics out of it.

If I were buying a new car today (even a used one too) I would favor the best looking RED one I could find as long as it met my requirements as stated by Wendell.

Unfortunately a Ferrari would look nice sitting in the driveway but it just doesn't fit the budget!

ThePossum wrote: If I were buying a new car today (even a used one too) I would favor the best looking RED one I could find as long as it met my requirements as stated by Wendell.

Unfortunately a Ferrari would look nice sitting in the driveway but it just doesn't fit the budget!

lol.

How about a plain-jane, post 1999 Corvette? (it's on my list, except it probably won't be RED, haha).

Get the Buick or Chevy. Politics just screw everything up. Rise above it! The best car we've ever owned was a Buick Regal, a co-worker has the Verano, or some such, a Buick anyway, and she loves it. I think my wife would love it too.

ThePossum wrote:...
Unfortunately a Ferrari would look nice sitting in the driveway but it just doesn't fit the budget!

Yeah -- it would go nicely beside the Ford Cortina.

The Ford Contina - proudly sponsored by lovable layabouts everywhere!

Craig_From_Cincy wrote:

RazorRamone wrote:Politically, the US auto maker issue is a double-edged sword.

Provide these 3 companies massive tax funded breaks/hand-outs and they employ thousands of North Americans - directly or indirectly. Dismiss these breaks and there is no sane financial reason to keep the doors open on a single North American auto manufacturing facility.

As long as the Big 3 unionized line workers are being paid $80-100k per year (add 20+% when considering pensions & benefits) when the very same employees cost <$30k per year in other countries, there will be all kinds of political, business, and moral issues to debate.

On my side of the debate, I will remain with Toyota & Honda as long as my cars are manufactured in North America.

This isn't the case any longer. The labor cost difference between unionized GM and non-unionized Toyota is three dollars per hour, on average:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-1 ... yhq0x.html

Thanks for this link. Although I had heard the gap had closed between union & non-union workers, I had no idea in terms of the new hourly rates.

How times have changed.

I'd just buy what I wanted.