Kitchen knives

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brothers
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Re: Kitchen knives

Post by brothers » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:24 pm

Couldn't ask for more knowledgeable recommendations for an electric sharpener. This means I've got to get one of those! :D
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Re: Kitchen knives

Post by CMur12 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:23 pm

Question about the Chef's Choice electric sharpeners:

As I recall, these electric sharpeners install what they call a "Trizor" edge, which is a new bevel (perhaps two bevels) and a textured edge.

Does a knife with a Trizor edge still respond well to maintenance with a steel or ceramic honing rod, or must one use the electric sharpener for all blade maintenance?

I fear I would be removing more steel from the blade in this process than I might really want to. Also, on an intuitive level, I'm not sure I would want to use this on my carbon steel knives.

- Murray
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fallingwickets
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Re: Kitchen knives

Post by fallingwickets » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:31 am

Murray, I use a honing rod and touch wood, so far so good. My fav knife is carbon

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ShadowsDad
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Re: Kitchen knives

Post by ShadowsDad » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:19 am

Murray, the 3rd station on the Trizor is a hone, so in order to not abuse your knives you would use it (and put away the steel) to realign the edge. The machine is far better at controlling the angle and maintaining the edge than humankind is. If you insist on using inaccurate methods of maintenance then you'd be wasting your money by buying the machine. That wasn't a slam on you, but we simply aren't as accurate as the machine and a 15° angle can be easily destroyed.

Initially the machine removes a lot of metal since the edge is being made into a 15° edge from a 20° edge, but that metal isn't being removed from the cutting edge itself, but from where the blade body and ground edge meet. If you mean something else then I clearly don't understand.

Why would you want to use manual sharpening/realigning methods? Once you use a machine sharpened 15° knife you'll put away your steel and let the machine continue. Once you use a knife ground to that angle you'll wonder why you used the European 20° for so long. I tested a knife ground to that angle for some time. Then I went ahead and reground all of our knives. The initial regrinding took a long time. But now it's just a few passes with the 2nd 2 stations to maintain the edges. The 3rd station gets used more often since most times it only needs to have the edge realigned (what happens with a steel).

I use our CC Trizor on all of my knives now, SS and carbon steel. I don't quite understand reticence on using it for carbon steel knives. Could you explain?

In the past I could never understand why chefs would jealously guard their knives from other users. I do now. Unless someone has proven themselves worthy of my knife edges (with a demo performed on their own knives in their home- they don't know that I'm evaluating) I don't let anyone use my knives.

One downside to the machine... I resharpened our paring knives too. In the past I could hold a carrot for example and slice it by pulling the knife through the vegetable and use the carrot holding thumb as the "cutting board". That's the best I can describe it. That can no longer be done w/o seeing blood. It's no big deal, it's a technique I probably never should have done anyway but got away with for decades. Now a cutting board is used for all manual cutting chores.
Brian

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Or find it here: Italian Barber, West Coast Shaving, Barclay Crocker, The Old Town Shaving Company at Stats, Maggard Razors; Leavitt & Peirce, Harvard Square

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Re: Kitchen knives

Post by CMur12 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:15 pm

Hi Brian -

Thanks for the very complete explanation.

I agree that it is not possible to apply a honing rod at the exact angle to match the bevel, so a honing station in the sharpener would be a good thing.

My reservation about using such a sharpener with carbon steel is that it appears to be designed to address the limitations of stainless steel, which is typically harder and more brittle. I know that this is less the case with a fine cutlery-grade stainless, but the whole point of carbon steel is that it can take a very keen edge, without resorting to such edge-shaping.

You noted that the initial grinding took a long time, in order to create the new bevel. How did you know how long to take to accomplish this or how did you know when the transformation was complete?

At least I'm more sold on getting one of these machines for my European stainless, if not for Japanese knives with asymmetrical bevels.

Thanks again, Brian.

- Murray
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Kyle76
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Re: Kitchen knives

Post by Kyle76 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:12 pm

Murray, I honed my knives on both sides until I got close to the edge I wanted, then I used the hone one one side until a hook began to form on the edge. That was my sign that it was time to hone the opposite edge and remove the hook, resulting in a proper edge that only needs touching up with the steel from time to time. I think that’s how it’s supposed to be done.
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Re: Kitchen knives

Post by CMur12 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:04 pm

Jim, are you talking about honing or sharpening? I have never managed to get the results you describe with a honing steel or a ceramic honing rod, whose purpose is primarily to realign the edge, with a mild sharpening effect added. If you are actually achieving such results with a steel/ceramic honing rod, I would like to know more about how you do it. Thanks.

- Murray
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ShadowsDad
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Re: Kitchen knives

Post by ShadowsDad » Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:17 pm

One grinds until the burr is felt on the edge, then one moves to the next station.

It took long for my knives because some of them were heavy bladed knives used for dressing out deer, and knives used for other purposes...very heavy blades up to almost 1/4" thick. My kitchen knives were reground fairly quickly. My heaviest knife took many hours over days to regrind it. But that was long after my kitchen knives were finished and it will never be used in the kitchen. If I had had it in the military it would have been right at home in slicing my way out of a burning chopper or for anti-personnel uses if that tells you it's mission. It's not for food but for "other uses". Its a knife that I wouldn't hesitate to redress with a stone to keep it up in the field.

The Trizor is specifically designed for asymmetrical Japanese grinds. That's exactly what it does. But it also does that grind on European grind knives (both edges) as well. Just resist any temptation to use both sides of a station. :)

Reading the manual will explain it. Maybe it's online? I don't know. You'd need to google it, or go to Chefs Choice to find it.
Brian

Maker of Kramperts Finest Bay Rum and Frostbite http://www.krampertsfinest.com/
Or find it here: Italian Barber, West Coast Shaving, Barclay Crocker, The Old Town Shaving Company at Stats, Maggard Razors; Leavitt & Peirce, Harvard Square

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Kyle76
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Re: Kitchen knives

Post by Kyle76 » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:50 am

Murray, I’m talking about the grinder of my Chef’s Choice sharpening station. I don’t know if has anything to do with Trizor. I don’t recall that term. It’s probably 5-7 years old. The grinder sets the bevel and should not be needed, or rarely so, after that initial grind. Then, only the shapening steel and stropping functions should be needed to touch up the edge from time to time.
Jim

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Re: Kitchen knives

Post by CMur12 » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:03 pm

Okay, got it, Jim!

- Murray
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