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Re: Kitchen knives

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:24 pm
by brothers
Couldn't ask for more knowledgeable recommendations for an electric sharpener. This means I've got to get one of those! :D

Re: Kitchen knives

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:23 pm
by CMur12
Question about the Chef's Choice electric sharpeners:

As I recall, these electric sharpeners install what they call a "Trizor" edge, which is a new bevel (perhaps two bevels) and a textured edge.

Does a knife with a Trizor edge still respond well to maintenance with a steel or ceramic honing rod, or must one use the electric sharpener for all blade maintenance?

I fear I would be removing more steel from the blade in this process than I might really want to. Also, on an intuitive level, I'm not sure I would want to use this on my carbon steel knives.

- Murray

Re: Kitchen knives

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:31 am
by fallingwickets
Murray, I use a honing rod and touch wood, so far so good. My fav knife is carbon

clive

Re: Kitchen knives

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:19 am
by ShadowsDad
Murray, the 3rd station on the Trizor is a hone, so in order to not abuse your knives you would use it (and put away the steel) to realign the edge. The machine is far better at controlling the angle and maintaining the edge than humankind is. If you insist on using inaccurate methods of maintenance then you'd be wasting your money by buying the machine. That wasn't a slam on you, but we simply aren't as accurate as the machine and a 15° angle can be easily destroyed.

Initially the machine removes a lot of metal since the edge is being made into a 15° edge from a 20° edge, but that metal isn't being removed from the cutting edge itself, but from where the blade body and ground edge meet. If you mean something else then I clearly don't understand.

Why would you want to use manual sharpening/realigning methods? Once you use a machine sharpened 15° knife you'll put away your steel and let the machine continue. Once you use a knife ground to that angle you'll wonder why you used the European 20° for so long. I tested a knife ground to that angle for some time. Then I went ahead and reground all of our knives. The initial regrinding took a long time. But now it's just a few passes with the 2nd 2 stations to maintain the edges. The 3rd station gets used more often since most times it only needs to have the edge realigned (what happens with a steel).

I use our CC Trizor on all of my knives now, SS and carbon steel. I don't quite understand reticence on using it for carbon steel knives. Could you explain?

In the past I could never understand why chefs would jealously guard their knives from other users. I do now. Unless someone has proven themselves worthy of my knife edges (with a demo performed on their own knives in their home- they don't know that I'm evaluating) I don't let anyone use my knives.

One downside to the machine... I resharpened our paring knives too. In the past I could hold a carrot for example and slice it by pulling the knife through the vegetable and use the carrot holding thumb as the "cutting board". That's the best I can describe it. That can no longer be done w/o seeing blood. It's no big deal, it's a technique I probably never should have done anyway but got away with for decades. Now a cutting board is used for all manual cutting chores.

Re: Kitchen knives

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:15 pm
by CMur12
Hi Brian -

Thanks for the very complete explanation.

I agree that it is not possible to apply a honing rod at the exact angle to match the bevel, so a honing station in the sharpener would be a good thing.

My reservation about using such a sharpener with carbon steel is that it appears to be designed to address the limitations of stainless steel, which is typically harder and more brittle. I know that this is less the case with a fine cutlery-grade stainless, but the whole point of carbon steel is that it can take a very keen edge, without resorting to such edge-shaping.

You noted that the initial grinding took a long time, in order to create the new bevel. How did you know how long to take to accomplish this or how did you know when the transformation was complete?

At least I'm more sold on getting one of these machines for my European stainless, if not for Japanese knives with asymmetrical bevels.

Thanks again, Brian.

- Murray

Re: Kitchen knives

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:12 pm
by Kyle76
Murray, I honed my knives on both sides until I got close to the edge I wanted, then I used the hone one one side until a hook began to form on the edge. That was my sign that it was time to hone the opposite edge and remove the hook, resulting in a proper edge that only needs touching up with the steel from time to time. I think that’s how it’s supposed to be done.

Re: Kitchen knives

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:04 pm
by CMur12
Jim, are you talking about honing or sharpening? I have never managed to get the results you describe with a honing steel or a ceramic honing rod, whose purpose is primarily to realign the edge, with a mild sharpening effect added. If you are actually achieving such results with a steel/ceramic honing rod, I would like to know more about how you do it. Thanks.

- Murray

Re: Kitchen knives

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:17 pm
by ShadowsDad
One grinds until the burr is felt on the edge, then one moves to the next station.

It took long for my knives because some of them were heavy bladed knives used for dressing out deer, and knives used for other purposes...very heavy blades up to almost 1/4" thick. My kitchen knives were reground fairly quickly. My heaviest knife took many hours over days to regrind it. But that was long after my kitchen knives were finished and it will never be used in the kitchen. If I had had it in the military it would have been right at home in slicing my way out of a burning chopper or for anti-personnel uses if that tells you it's mission. It's not for food but for "other uses". Its a knife that I wouldn't hesitate to redress with a stone to keep it up in the field.

The Trizor is specifically designed for asymmetrical Japanese grinds. That's exactly what it does. But it also does that grind on European grind knives (both edges) as well. Just resist any temptation to use both sides of a station. :)

Reading the manual will explain it. Maybe it's online? I don't know. You'd need to google it, or go to Chefs Choice to find it.

Re: Kitchen knives

Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:50 am
by Kyle76
Murray, I’m talking about the grinder of my Chef’s Choice sharpening station. I don’t know if has anything to do with Trizor. I don’t recall that term. It’s probably 5-7 years old. The grinder sets the bevel and should not be needed, or rarely so, after that initial grind. Then, only the shapening steel and stropping functions should be needed to touch up the edge from time to time.

Re: Kitchen knives

Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:03 pm
by CMur12
Okay, got it, Jim!

- Murray

Re: Kitchen knives

Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:26 pm
by brothers
Ever since I first read this thread I have been very curious about the Chef's Choice diamond hone knife sharpener. My daughter had asked me to sharpen her kitchen knives that had been given to her when she moved into her own home and had to get the kitchen set up. Last week I sharpened her knives the old fashioned way by hand. The edges were in bad shape but they came around with a bit of time. That made me start thinking about the Chef's Choice sharpener.

Just a couple of days later when my wife and I were in Fredericksburg TX we visited a very well-stocked specialty store that specializes in all things related to cooking. To my surprise when I walked into the area where the knives are displayed I spotted a new Chef's Choice sharpener that had been discounted about 25% as it was the last one in stock. Of course I bought it and was eager to try it out. We returned home yesterday and today was a good day to try it.

I found an older knife that I had stored away a few years ago when we got a new set of kitchen knives. It was a good knife but the old edge was in bad shape. I followed the directions and was able to modify the old knife's bevels to 15 degrees. It took some time, but the result was great. We used that particular knife this evening when it was time to prepare dinner.

Thanks to all of you guys who turned me on to this sharpener. Now I'm looking forward to using it on the rest of our good knives. It seems to be a well-designed and built appliance that isn't difficult to use. This will save me a lot of time, and also we'll be able to keep our knives as sharp as they should be at all times.

Re: Kitchen knives

Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:23 pm
by ShadowsDad
Glad that it's working for you.

Re: Kitchen knives

Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:23 am
by fallingwickets
great story gary...glad it worked for you

Re: Kitchen knives

Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:58 pm
by drmoss_ca
If you live in the UK you might want to stock up on knife sharpening supplies and maybe even a new set of decent kitchen knives before this nonsense plays out. No doubt only rubber knives will be on sale soon (which may not matter given the English tendency to boil all foods to death and the renowned quality of English dentistry! I write this as a victim of both.)
Either I am experiencing a sad re-enactment of every previous generation's disappointment in current trends, or the UK really has gone to the dogs.

C.

Re: Kitchen knives

Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:56 pm
by ShadowsDad
I follow things like this closely. I normally just can't discuss them here and I was basically told that. So I don't go near it. Thanks for raising the issue.

"A nation of sheep soon begets a government of wolves.". Edward R. Murrow.

Yes it has gone to the wolves and they have absolutely no understanding.

They simply don't understand that it's what's in the mind that's at fault and not the tool. Firearms are difficult to get in the UK (from what I understand) so the human debris has switched to other weapons. When the ban on kitchen knives doesn't work they'll ban bludgeons and sharp pencils. OK, that includes socks and coins as well since they can be made into a blackjack quite easily. At some point someone with a higher than room temperature IQ needs to intercede and the sheep need to become something other than sheep.

FWIW, London has eclipsed NYC in murder rate... all due to those darn assault knives. How's the "gun ban" working? To his discredit the mayor of London hasn't a clue as to the cause. The blind leading the blind.

Don't misunderstand, we have that problem here in the USA as well where the people with (proven) no solutions want to double down on things that haven't worked and never will and never can. While things that are proven to work are ignored or poo-pooed. I'm an equal opportunity disrespector of those folks no matter where they live so it isn't just the UK or London. IQ challenged folks (or are they mentally ill?) abound there and here it seems.

As long as there is a preponderance of sheep there will be voted in predators as well as the predators left among the flock.

OK, now a conspiracy theory... If the predators are removed, what use are the elected officials or government ? That was the subject of a study done years ago in the USA. Of course there are those who poo-poo it and claim it was something other than the study self proclaims itself to be. But just open the eyes and look around. How many "problems" have actually been solved that could be solved if folks of intelligence actually desired to fix them? Not everyone in government can have a room temperature IQ. It has to be deliberate IMO. I base that on what I see here in the USA.

Here's the link to the study.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... j0UkKKwFqY

Re: Kitchen knives

Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:18 pm
by drmoss_ca
I gratefully accept your rebuke. Politics is generally dynamite to a forum, but some instances are just so stupid, I can't help but break my own rules. There's a lot more to be said about this issue, but I will refrain if you will (OK, even if you won't!)

C.

Re: Kitchen knives

Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:32 pm
by CMur12
I was going to point out, myself, that a sharpened pencil is a dandy stabbing device. 8)

- Murray

Re: Kitchen knives

Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:38 pm
by ShadowsDad
I said my piece, so I'm done. BTW, it wasn't you Chris. I discussed something unpolitical and was told to never discuss it again because twisted minds could make it political (no tool required for twisted minds) and that subject was just for folks to write, "See what I bought.".

Re: Kitchen knives

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:23 am
by brothers
Hopefully it'll be a while before they decide straight razors and DE/SE blades are too sharp for the citizenry to have and use. It occurs to me that they seem to be treating their citizens as if they are little children who might accidentally pick up a carelessly laid knife or otherwise and hurt themselves.
Thinking ahead, one supposes that next it'll be clubs, tools (hammers), and tree branches with which one person might swing and strike and injure another.

Re: Kitchen knives

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:06 pm
by Rufus
brothers wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:23 am
Hopefully it'll be a while before they decide straight razors and DE/SE blades are too sharp for the citizenry to have and use. It occurs to me that they seem to be treating their citizens as if they are little children who might accidentally pick up a carelessly laid knife or otherwise and hurt themselves.
Thinking ahead, one supposes that next it'll be clubs, tools (hammers), and tree branches with which one person might swing and strike and injure another.
It’s known as The Nanny State; very appropriate I think. But in North America we’re not immune to it...Stay Safe ](*,)