Maine Governor signs Constitutional Carry Bill!

[ShadowsDad]

Lots if us fought to get this passed. In 89 days it will go into effect.

I'm an ex LEO and currently an NRA instructor, so I've seen more than most, and CCC will hit me in my wallet, but it's the right thing to do.

Basically the law states that if it's legal for you to have the gun in the first place, you will be able to carry it concealed. We've always had an open carry law, but that can be unnerving for lots of folks to see. We've also had concealed carry with a permit, and since folks don't see it they, obviously, aren't alarmed by the knowledge that anyone could be carrying. There are a few caveats with the new CCC law, like if one doesn't have a permit and is stopped by a LEO the gent must inform the LEO of the fact of CC. I don't see that it will change anything for folks who have gone through the CC permit process, or if anything has changed I don't know of it at this time.

The opposition stated that criminals would be able to carry also. They forget that criminals already do that; they're criminals after all and don't follow the law. All this law does is to put more good guys "out there" to even up the odds and make it much more dangerous for criminals. It also allows folks to defend themselves from the bad guys. Maine has simply joined many other states that have CCC laws.

Thanks Gov' LePage!

[Gene]

Brian - are you saying you currently can carry concealed with a permit, but after the new law passes you can carry concealed even without a permit?

That would put you guys ahead of Texas - where concealed carry is permit only, and open carry, which was just signed, is available only to CC permit holders (if I understand the law).

Personally - I like the permit process here is Texas. Class time and range time - with tests all around that you MUST pass. But that's just me.

[ShadowsDad]

That's correct Gene. Anyone with a CC permit could carry concealed before and will still be able to CC, as they always have, after the law goes into effect. But since we've gone through the schooling and background checks we get "special exemptions" that those who will carry under the Constitution will need to abide by.

After the law goes into effect anyone who can legally own a gun can also carry concealed, but with certain provisions within the law that they must comply with.

For a time I believed as you did and that argument has a certain validity that definitely makes sense; I won't deny that. But Vermont has never had a permit process. For over 200 years any resident in Vermont has had the option to carry concealed or not. There are also many states that also have recently gotten this law on the books. Its what the 2nd Amendment states in fact, so it's just a reaffirmation of the founders trust in the law abiding citizens.

Since I began from where you are I decided to look into it. No where has it been a problem. Law abiding citizens are law abiding no matter where they live. Too, Maine citizens are no dumber than Vermonters, neither are folks in Texas. Bad actors are bad actors and they carry against the law, all this does is allow the sheep that the wolves prey on to be armed. It also means that an outdoorsman hunting with a handgun whose coat covers the handgun while hunting can't be prosecuted for a concealed handgun.

But I agree that folks should educate themselves before they carry. That's why permit holders in Maine will be exempt from some of the things others without a permit will need to adhere to. I don't know all of the particulars yet, but I suspect there are also age requirements, but that's just a guess on my part.

When I was helping to fight for it I asked everyone I contacted if they really thought Mainers, the folks who voted them into office, were somehow more stupid than Vermonters.

Too, the law doesn't do away with the permit process. I firmly believe that folks should get instruction before carrying and I know that not everyone will. Yet I also believe that someone should be able to defend their person right now if they had a credible threat to their person a heartbeat before. Too many people have died while waiting for a bureaucrat to approve a permit.

I can argue it both ways and each way is equally valid, but it's a persons right to defend oneself that's at stake, and I won't ever deny anyone that right that we have given to us by the ALMIGHTY. It just makes no sense to arm the wolves and keep protection from the defenseless citizens. That's exactly what gun law does, and I believe that is by design.

But it comes down to the fact that folks who shouldn't carry already are carrying illegally, and they don't care at all about the consequences*. Law abiding folks do. It's worked in all of those other states that already have it. It would in Texas too. I knew quite a few Texans in the military and I know quite a few Texans today. It would work in Texas. They are just as level headed as the rest of the nation. The ones who can legally have firearms anyway. Please don't confuse the 2 types of people. We have our scumbags the same as Texas has.

I strongly suspect that after the law goes into effect that the vast majority of people in Maine will be just as oblivious as they were before the law went into effect. Those who should carry might, those who carry now will continue to, and those without a clue won't. Wolves will always be wolves, the sheepdogs will always be sheepdogs , and the sheep will always be sheep. That's the story of the world and humanity from the first homo sapiens to today.

*That includes folks on Rx drugs that warp the brain and such as well - they can't legally own guns and those are the folks who have done the mass shootings in this country. Big Pharma and the FDA doesn't want you to know that because their drugs are "safe" (they aren't) and billions of dollars are made from their sale.

Edit: Oh I nearly forgot... Class and range time... the police have that as well. I have witnessed officers who couldn't hit a barn if they were standing inside it with the door closed. They had to "pass" their qualification when no one was around as a witness. I don't know if you remember a bunch of years back the 2 officers who took on someone near the Empire State building. I forget how many people were shot. I told my wife when I first heard of it, "I bet they were shot by the cops.". Sure enough, they were, all of the shots that hit the bystanders were shot by the cops. So class and range time is a theory that gives one a warm fuzzy feeling only. It can help, but it also is over rated. LOTS of range time is what is required and not everyone is me or you. That's why I always told my students that I couldn't care less if they could hit the target at 25 yards (it would be nice), I was there to make sure they were safe with a firearm. I'd move them up until they could hit the target and suggested to them that they never take a shot beyond that range without a great deal more practice. Some have been very close indeed. But I did that to show them what their limitations were. I always stressed that every bullet has a lawyer attached to it.

[SnafuJack]

Brian...I beleive you are referring to an incident where a gentleman purchased a 45cal handgun legally in Florida, and brought it illegally to New York. He used the firearm 5 times on a former co-worker he had a beef with and fled the scene. Encountering two NYC Police Officers, he pulled the weapon and pointed it at the officers who responded by discharging their weapons 14 times (vid shows text book affirmative defense), ending/stopping the threat of death or serious bodily harm to the officers and others. 6 bystanders were treated for ricochet wounds to the lower extremities, but none were admitted to hospital for gunshot wounds.

One of the tenets of firearm ownership is safeguarding the weapon(s) and making sure it cannot be used by a mentally troubled child to visit violence on students and teachers.

How many 'bad people' got their illegel firearm by stealing it or buying it from someone who stole it ?

I agree that no state is smarter then another, but I still think class and training make good sense.

[ShadowsDad]

You very well may have more of the facts about that than I do, but I don't remember the gent that they pulled on having done anything wrong. I thought he was let go. But other than a hazy recollection I don't remember much about it.

Dittos the training and such. Any prudent law abiding citizen will obtain it since that's what separates us from the criminals. We care about others, they don't.

Our local media was proclaiming Maine as the 6th state in the nation to have Constitutional Carry, As usual they got it wrong. We are #7. Either they forgot that Alaska is in the Union, or they didn't hear that Kansas was #6. New Hampshires Gov' recently nixed that states CCC law. I think it was the day before our Gov' signed ours into law.

[Gene]

Hi Brian...went dark the other day - my birthday was last Friday, and I managed to get a whole weekend of celebrating out of the deal.

The concealed license process in Texas involved several hours of class work and a range exam.

The classroom work involves a workbook, with several modules to review.Where/when you can, can't and shouldn't carry. Dealing with local LEO's. Obligations for retreat and quite a lot of discussion on who we are responsible to protect and who we are not responsible for. In other words - immediate family is one thing...but in most other instances we are not obligated to protect or reveal our weapon. My son and I debate this often - when we would feel bound to intervene and when we would remove ourselves from a potentially dangerous situation.

The range work is quite interesting. The class fires 50 rounds each, at 3 distances: 3 yards, 7 yards and 15 yards. At the longer distances there are time limits imposed - one being 5 shots in 15 seconds. It is interesting to note that this is slightly faster than NRA "time fired" match times: 5 in 20 seconds. But it's the clock that makes you mess up. My son - who is a slightly better shot than I am had some misses while the clock was running - you fire two or three shots, then angst creeps in as you realize you have no idea how much time is left. This causes your responses to morph slightly; you have to account for that. I am accustomed to NRA match events, so I was better able to remain calm and I shot a perfect score, while my son lost 4 points from those misses.

Now, when we go shooting (which we did Saturday) we do movement training. We pick 4 areas as targets, then mix it up between rifle and pistol shots - 3 targets with 2 rounds each with our AR's, then sling the AR and 2 rounds from holstered pistol at the last target. Movement between targets. It really changes your perspective to add movement and weapon switching into the mix - you really need to pay attention.

We pattern what we do to be similar to "3 gun" competition. That looks like fun, but the ammo requirements are steep (expensive). For the curious You Tube the term 3 gun.

Adding movement and time causes the nerves to kick in - hard to overcome at first - but I think it's ultimately more beneficial than just standing still blazing away at a target.

[ShadowsDad]

I shoot USPSA so I am quite familiar with movement, timed shooting, spectators, and what it does for adrenalin. We've had folks serving in the sandbox come and "train" with us who claim that it's as close as one can come to the real thing.

Yours sounds like a good course.

[ShadowsDad]

I'd be willing to bet that every person who carries concealed thought that exact thought, I know I did almost instantly. It wouldn't have been much of a shootout though. Dirtbags don't practice, we do. It would have been more like suicide of the badguy by the hands of others, something like suicide by cop. But yes, you're correct, when folks get into trouble they look for someone with a gun to help them, most times they call a cop after the fact. You're also correct in that neither of the 3 shot were capable of defending their person. Concealed carriers know that when seconds count they can have their firearm in hand in under 2 seconds and that cops are still minutes away. Defending ones own life is the pinnacle of morality, rather than hiding behind some underpaid LEO who arrived long after the fact and wishing that what just happened hadn't. And yes, any concealed carrier could have intervened had one been there (if they wished to). But more and more I'm coming to realize that if I were to intervene it might not be appreciated and I'd be on my own to pay the legal fees. That could be devastating, so more and more I tell myself that I'm no longer a LEO and folks are on their own to live their lives as they decided to live them. Doing nothing is a decision. Sometimes that can be a very harsh lesson when one is about to lose ones life, but everyone makes choices that they live with. More and more I'm coming to realize that I CC for me and mine only. I'll take good notes so that the cops can find the perp and reconstruct what happened.

There is a segment of the population who has continually predicted what you wrote with your last line, and to their disappointment that has never developed anywhere Constitutional Concealed Carry has been instituted. Heck, every time a new state get licensed concealed carry that line is used. It's never happened because gun owners and folks who carry legally are by definition good people. It's only the dirtbags who don't follow the law and carry anyway. It's those folks who a segment of the population is confusing with the good guys and the dirtags don't follow law, so their numbers don't increase when CCC is instituted, only the numbers of law abiding, good folks, who carry increase. CCC laws put more sheepdogs among the sheep and the number of wolves doesn't increase. The net result is that crime goes down. Everywhere it has happened that has been the result.

Basically, the mindless sheep can't tell the difference between a wolf and a sheepdog. Defang the sheepdog and the wolf owns the herd; the sheep for one reason or another can't understand that, and one segment of the population wants that to continue and increase. I won't speculate why here, but I'm certain that I know the answer.

Right now there are only a handful of states at most that still deny people their right of self defense. They have stripped a right that every sentient being on the planet has; the right to defend ones life. The other states, and that's most, have returned a basic right, in one form or another, back to the people who have always owned it, but had it stripped from them by folks who deny basic human rights of others. That's the story of history. People who would strip others of rights and the fight to regain them. They'll do it by any means necessary, even if it means lying to try to get others to believe a falsehood.

[Gene]

I discussed comfortable concealed carry with a member of our local PD last night. He recommended the sidearm I actually use in my daily carry...which I thought was cool.

He offered this observation: Most concealed carry firefights are less than 8 rounds fired - most are 2 or 3.

I desperately wish one of those folks had been able to defend themselves...connecting the dots after fact makes it seem all too obvious (at least to me) that the shooter was a mass of anger management issues and there was bound to be trouble soon.

[ShadowsDad]

I understand where you're coming from with that, but not everyone is capable or desires to defend their life. They want it to be defended, they just don't want to do it. That's fairly immoral, but if they don't want to defend their life I give them their desire. That's why I've rethought my reaction to defend. I've given it a great deal of thought and if their life is that meaningless to them, it's that meaningless to me as well. They're on their own. Again, I understand where you're coming from, but to force them to know how to use the means to defend themselves is just as bad as the antis trying to force everyone to be disarmed and helpless. IMO it's right just the way it is, those who choose to may, and those who don't get what they want. We just need to remember to stay out of their mess, stay back and just take notes. Only get involved if the evil comes near our loved ones. I would probably make an exception in the case of a child who hasn't had the ability to decide yet. But back to mandating basic firearm proficiency/ownership... There are some folks who would scare me if they had a firearm and I like seeing the ghetto hold in a movie. That's exactly the way I want to see the bad guys use their handgun. I wouldn't want them to be trained, that might make them deliberately dangerous instead of lucky.

I wonder, and I haven't heard anything regarding this yet, if the shooter was on anti-depressants. When they work they work nicely, but there is a certain percentage of folks who they make go nuts and most of the time it's violent. They have been a common theme in mass shootings, and that has largely gone unreported. Pharmaceuticals and gun free zones are the biggest factors in mass shootings. In fact I don't know of any modern mass shooting that hasn't featured one or the other or both.

Gene I used to think that way also, about round count, and I still do to a certain extent. My deep cover gun has a 6-7 round count depending on the mag chosen, and my everyday carry has a 7-8 round count. But the threat is changing depending on how one sees it. Now there are multiple assailants to be dealt with and not everyone shoots with 100% hits under stress. I'm moving away from a handgun with 7-8 rounds and to one with a higher round count. When I'm done my round count, including spares, should at least double as compared to today. The spare mag won't be pretty and will stick out of the grip, but at that point everyone knows what's happening and any attempt at concealment has flown out the window. I have never heard anyone involved in an active shooter scene complain that they had too much ammo. FWIW, in Maine a CC permit isn't a get out of jail free card, but close to it. Our local LEOs know that we have their back, at least that's my take on it. It doesn't mean that one flaunts the law. But if we screw up (everyone does eventually), I've found that leniency is extended, or maybe they know I'm an ex LEO. Someone has to know because I've never had to report for jury duty. I have no idea what their computer turns up. I know the permit turns up because I was told that by one officer. I didn't supply the information and he never saw my handgun but he knew after running me.

But back to Virginia, I'm not at all certain that if either of the folks involved had had a handgun that it would have made a difference. Their attention was diverted and their mind was on other things. As sheepdogs we aren't in green mode very much or we shouldn't be, but are aware of our surroundings and situation. Plus I think the range was short and even the most incompetent mass murderer can make good hits at 2 feet. The time for them to stop it was before it got going had they been armed and they had some distance, but they simply had no situational awareness. Distance is a friend of ours. If you carry you know how you are always aware of your surroundings. I've been doing it for so long I don't even think twice about it. It's just part of life. I bet you're much the same. It's just who we are. They weren't at that level of awareness; most folks simply aren't. It's not their fault, but it is the choice that they made consciously or unconsciously, and a madman took advantage of that.

OK, I'm going far afield now, but for those who carry, shooting under stress needs to be practiced. There is one really good way to do that and you won't do it at home on your range, or at least I can't. Get active in Action Pistol shooting. Either IDPA or USPSA, either will work. We've had troops from the sandbox shoot with us and they tell us that Action Pistol is as close to the real thing as can be simulated. They trained with us to learn to shoot under stress so that their hit rate would go up and so that they know what to expect and to control it. I don't know all that much about IDPA, but pretty much any handgun is competitive in USPSA. The idea is to shoot against ones previous score anyway IMO, but there is a competition aspect to it if that appeals. Just google Action Pistol in your state to find out where it's happening. Yes it'll cost something with fees and ammo but any training does. Trust me, you can shoot action pistol, at least if you can handle a gun safely, and that's #1.