It's a common issue. That's why I encourage newbies to start without using a brush and learn good technique first. The fewer complications that interfere with that process, the sooner you'll learn good technique. You can temporarily use something out of a can, Palmolive brushless or nancy Boy (directly). I know, you won't get the ultimate. ut you have to walk before you run. Learning in high heeled shoes doesn't help.mantic wrote:If its any consolation, it took me a LONG time to finally figure out lathering (months, in fact). Its one of those things you just need to practice and get familiar with, including being prepared to just dump a batch and start over again. Trust me, I felt your pain (literally).salbev wrote:...i have watched mantic's videos over and over on the same (he makes it look so easy!). so i will keep trying.
--Mark
pls help: bottom of neck trouble
Joe
Sal,
Just to add my 2 cents to the discussion. There are so many combinations of razors and blades, that it is difficult to direct you to any specific set-up. By experimenting with different equipment, you'll eventually find the right combination for YOU.
As for creating a proper lather, keep in mind that it is not enough to just 'apply' the lather to your beard. You really need to swirl the brush about your face for more time than you probably think. However this can lead to an overworked lather, which is to say a DRY lather. I like to really shake out most of the water from the brush at the start of the lathering process and add water as needed while lathering on my face. In this way, I always achieve the desired consistency.
Finding a soap or cream that is most compatible with your skin will help improve your shave by leaps and bounds. You'll know it when you find it. Again you need to try different products.
As for your specific problem in shaving the neck area, I would caution you NOT to stretch the skin TOO much. Stretching the skin allows more surface area to come in contact with the razor, thereby increasing the chances for irritation. More importantly, stretching the skin allows the whiskers to protrude from the skin line. This allows the razor to slice the whiskers more closely to the roots, so to speak. This will give you a closer shave, but you run the risk of GREATER irritation. As the whisker begins to grow, it can aggravate the surrounding skin of the hair follicle, resulting in razor bumps. In the worst case scenario, a whisker that is cut too close and trapped below the skin line results in an ingrown hair. You want to avoid those at all costs.
See the following pics once posted by Themba, one of our members:
Razor Bump:
Ingrown Hair:
My advice to you is to strive to achieve HEALTHY skin rather than a CLOSE shave. The close shave will come once you refine your techniques.
Sorry for the long post.
Ren
Just to add my 2 cents to the discussion. There are so many combinations of razors and blades, that it is difficult to direct you to any specific set-up. By experimenting with different equipment, you'll eventually find the right combination for YOU.
As for creating a proper lather, keep in mind that it is not enough to just 'apply' the lather to your beard. You really need to swirl the brush about your face for more time than you probably think. However this can lead to an overworked lather, which is to say a DRY lather. I like to really shake out most of the water from the brush at the start of the lathering process and add water as needed while lathering on my face. In this way, I always achieve the desired consistency.
Finding a soap or cream that is most compatible with your skin will help improve your shave by leaps and bounds. You'll know it when you find it. Again you need to try different products.
As for your specific problem in shaving the neck area, I would caution you NOT to stretch the skin TOO much. Stretching the skin allows more surface area to come in contact with the razor, thereby increasing the chances for irritation. More importantly, stretching the skin allows the whiskers to protrude from the skin line. This allows the razor to slice the whiskers more closely to the roots, so to speak. This will give you a closer shave, but you run the risk of GREATER irritation. As the whisker begins to grow, it can aggravate the surrounding skin of the hair follicle, resulting in razor bumps. In the worst case scenario, a whisker that is cut too close and trapped below the skin line results in an ingrown hair. You want to avoid those at all costs.
See the following pics once posted by Themba, one of our members:
Razor Bump:
Ingrown Hair:
My advice to you is to strive to achieve HEALTHY skin rather than a CLOSE shave. The close shave will come once you refine your techniques.
Sorry for the long post.
Ren
"What I find ironic is the fact that we can talk wireless to a man on the moon but we can't talk to someone twenty feet away over a hard-wired intercom at a drive-thru!" - Pottydoctor
I agree with this.Big Ren wrote:As for your specific problem in shaving the neck area, I would caution you NOT to stretch the skin TOO much.
As a general proposition this is wrong.Stretching the skin allows more surface area to come in contact with the razor, thereby increasing the chances for irritation. More importantly, stretching the skin allows the whiskers to protrude from the skin line. This allows the razor to slice the whiskers more closely to the roots, so to speak. This will give you a closer shave, but you run the risk of GREATER irritation.
If you assume that you are not stretching too tightly, none of this will happen. Stretching has two purposes: lying the skin flat and standing up the whiskers (not causing them to protrude). Also a whisker that is cut at too steep an angle tends to taper to a point and it may curl, both tending towards ingrowns. Proper stretching will cut whiskers perpendicular to their surface, avoiding this problem.
On the neck, flat stretchin is indispensible. The skin is thin and moves around a lot. If you don't flatten it and stabilize it, the edge will nick or abrade it. The stretch must be wider thanthe width of the razor. You can prove the benefit to yourself. Stretch the skin up at the jawline to flatten it, then take a gentle downward cut (try it with a fine stubble). The razor should feel like it's sliding downhill. The cut will be smooth and irritation free. As you get to the lower neck, stretch up from a lower point. Now try it without stretching and see if it's as smooth or if the cut is as clean.
Above, I made no assumptions about the grain. It will work best if the grain runs downward or across. It will also work if the grain runs up but will require much shorter stubble or it won't be as smooth (or as close). The reason is that if you stretch in the direction of the grain you're causing the whiskeers to tilt more in the direction they're already tilting, which flattens them. If they're too long, the blade may hook under them (if it's fine stubble it shouldn't matter). But his demonstrates the second point. Stretching can be detrimental if it's not in the right direction. It should be against the grain so the whiskers are stood up instean of being flattened. If you can stand them upright, you've essentially eliminated the grain.
What good stretching won't do is cause a whisker to protrude more than normally. Most often that happens with a dull blade, which pulls the whisker before cutting it. It can also happen with very flat whiskers (the angle of the blade to the hair prevents clean cutting and can produce some pulling), but good stretching counteracts that.
Pulling a whisker can cut it too short and produce a bump/ingrown. Most often it happens when the hair is coarse and curly.
If you cut whiskers that are too flat you produce a tapered end that curls and may be sharp, tending towards ingrowns. Prpoer stretching causes whiskers to be cut perpendicular to their surface, avoiding this problem.
Joe
Joe,
Perhaps I should have been more clear. There is a difference between 'stretching' and 'overstretching', the latter causing more of the problems I have outlined. Even so, I still maintain that manually stretching the skin is probably not a good idea for those with problem areas (like the neck), especially on an against-the-grain pass. It is better to leave the whiskers longer and avoid the risks for irritation. In my case, merely tilting my head back is enough to give me enough of a smooth shaving surface. Of course, everyone's skin is different. But generally, as per my previous post, I still contend that until someone is able to achieve both a close and comfortable shave, it is always preferable to strive for comfort, if one has to choose between one or the other, as many novice shavers must.
Ren
Perhaps I should have been more clear. There is a difference between 'stretching' and 'overstretching', the latter causing more of the problems I have outlined. Even so, I still maintain that manually stretching the skin is probably not a good idea for those with problem areas (like the neck), especially on an against-the-grain pass. It is better to leave the whiskers longer and avoid the risks for irritation. In my case, merely tilting my head back is enough to give me enough of a smooth shaving surface. Of course, everyone's skin is different. But generally, as per my previous post, I still contend that until someone is able to achieve both a close and comfortable shave, it is always preferable to strive for comfort, if one has to choose between one or the other, as many novice shavers must.
Ren
"What I find ironic is the fact that we can talk wireless to a man on the moon but we can't talk to someone twenty feet away over a hard-wired intercom at a drive-thru!" - Pottydoctor
I consider that a form of stretching, because it produces a flat surface.Big Ren wrote:In my case, merely tilting my head back is enough to give me enough of a smooth shaving surface.
What it doesn't do is stand up the whiskers, which would reduce the likelihood of irritation rather than increase it. The most common solution to irritation problems of the neck is stretching. Some guys may have special problems and it might not work for them, but it's the first thing I'd try if I had comfort issues on my neck.
Joe
Joe Lerch wrote:I consider that a form of stretching, because it produces a flat surface.
Agreed, it stretches the skin enough to allow for an easy glide of the razor but not so much to cause irritation. Stretching vs. overstretching.
Joe, I would disagree with you about the whiskers not standing up. In my case it works, probably because my skin is taut. But you're right that maybe for those with looser skin manual stretching might be needed.joe Lerch wrote:What it doesn't do is stand up the whiskers, which would reduce the likelihood of irritation rather than increase it.
Joe, this is where we fundamentally disagree. I believe whenever the skin is stretched, the whiskers will be sheared closer to their roots increasing the chances for irritation when they grow back. I can understand the need for stretching the skin on the neck only if it is so loose that it would otherwise hang up on the blade. But I don't think this applies to the average shaver.Joe Lerch wrote:The most common solution to irritation problems of the neck is stretching. Some guys may have special problems and it might not work for them, but it's the first thing I'd try if I had comfort issues on my neck.
Ren
"What I find ironic is the fact that we can talk wireless to a man on the moon but we can't talk to someone twenty feet away over a hard-wired intercom at a drive-thru!" - Pottydoctor
I don't think you can support that physically or from general experience (not just yours).Big Ren wrote:Joe, this is where we fundamentally disagree. I believe whenever the skin is stretched, the whiskers will be sheared closer to their roots increasing the chances for irritation when they grow back.
I think you will agree that you can't avoid nicks if the skin isn't held flat. One reason is that the safety bar precedes the edge and depresses the skin. If the skin is very firm, it doesn't depress much, but with the excess pressure that is usually applied or real world soft skin, there is a considerable depression. Even if you're cutting with the flattest angle, there's a little wall in front of the edge that doesn't completely disappear by the time the edge gets there. So the effective angle of the blade to the skin is a lot greater than you think. So is the proportion of the applied pressure going into the skin, incresing the likelihood of iiritation and nicks. With the skin depressed you might also cut the whisker shorter. A slight stretch gives al ittle resilience to the skin and avoids excessive depression.
Physically, there is no way that proper sideways stretching will cause a whisker to rise out of the skin. If you're going ATG and hook under a low lying whisker, you can pull it before you cut it, but proper stretching will stand up this whisker, eliminating the natural issue.
If you still insist that proper stretching results in a whisker being cut shorter, explain it physically, keeping in mind that it reduces the depression of the skin.
When you had difficulty related to stretching, are you certain that you didn't stretch in the wrong direction, that is, forcing the whiskers down, instead of standing them up? If you force them down and cut against the grain, there could be a tendency to lift or pull the whiskers. That could cut them below the skin line, but with poor control.
Last edited by Joe Lerch on Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Joe
thanks, Mantic. that makes me feel a little better. i appreciate you saying that. but you have to admit, the shot of you going from the soap directly to the face is like magic. it just goes on and then lather is formed. awesome.mantic wrote:If its any consolation, it took me a LONG time to finally figure out lathering (months, in fact). Its one of those things you just need to practice and get familiar with, including being prepared to just dump a batch and start over again. Trust me, I felt your pain (literally).salbev wrote:...i have watched mantic's videos over and over on the same (he makes it look so easy!). so i will keep trying.
--Mark
i agree, it is the best way to go. this helps keep the desires for BBS in check to where the shaving results are accepted once "presentable" is acheived, instead of a beginner going over the line and getting hurt. i'll definitely keep it mind. it works great for newbies as a mantra: healthy rather than close....healthy rather than close...Big Ren wrote: My advice to you is to strive to achieve HEALTHY skin rather than a CLOSE shave. The close shave will come once you refine your techniques.
thank you, Big Ren. (it's cool to thank a guy named "Big Ren").
thank you Joe. once again you have provided me with a handful of posts i can put to good use. the information is in-depth and i will try to understand the stretching techniques and use them for good rather than evil. also the palmolive idea i will keep in mind if i really can't seem to get going witht the soap and brush for now. i agree that razor technique and getting grooved is more important than lather right now. i saw a brushless palmolive a few days ago so maybe i'll pick it up if i get really frustrated. thanks a lot, Joe.Joe Lerch wrote: You can temporarily use something out of a can, Palmolive brushless or nancy Boy (directly).
Last edited by salbev on Wed Jan 24, 2007 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sal,
You're very welcome. An italian guy named 'Big Ren' helping out a guy named 'Sal' sounds like something out of The Sopranos.
Best of luck on your shaving journey.
Ren
You're very welcome. An italian guy named 'Big Ren' helping out a guy named 'Sal' sounds like something out of The Sopranos.
Best of luck on your shaving journey.
Ren
"What I find ironic is the fact that we can talk wireless to a man on the moon but we can't talk to someone twenty feet away over a hard-wired intercom at a drive-thru!" - Pottydoctor
Joe,
We could continue with our respective ripostes indefinitely, but I suspect it is probably better to just agree to disagree. FWIW, I do see eye to eye with you on matters regarding the Second Amendment, but that is for another forum.
Ren
We could continue with our respective ripostes indefinitely, but I suspect it is probably better to just agree to disagree. FWIW, I do see eye to eye with you on matters regarding the Second Amendment, but that is for another forum.
Ren
"What I find ironic is the fact that we can talk wireless to a man on the moon but we can't talk to someone twenty feet away over a hard-wired intercom at a drive-thru!" - Pottydoctor
my thoughts exactly!Big Ren wrote:Sal,
You're very welcome. An italian guy named 'Big Ren' helping out a guy named 'Sal' sounds like something out of The Sopranos.
Best of luck on your shaving journey.
Ren
the good news is we're talking about shavin beards- not kneecaps, ouch! thank you for the well wishes.
OK, Ren. FWIW, I just revised my last post. Fegedaboudit!Big Ren wrote:Joe,
We could continue with our respective ripostes indefinitely, but I suspect it is probably better to just agree to disagree. FWIW, I do see eye to eye with you on matters regarding the Second Amendment, but that is for another forum.
Ren
Joe
Joe,
I very much enjoyed our discussion. You certainly have more experience than me in analyzing these techniques. Per your revised post, no I did not stretch the skin in the wrong direction. I am one of the lucky ones who generally gets a superb shave without much special effort. I've always said that good skin always makes for a good shave, and I am lucky to have good skin.
Cheers,
Ren
I very much enjoyed our discussion. You certainly have more experience than me in analyzing these techniques. Per your revised post, no I did not stretch the skin in the wrong direction. I am one of the lucky ones who generally gets a superb shave without much special effort. I've always said that good skin always makes for a good shave, and I am lucky to have good skin.
Cheers,
Ren
"What I find ironic is the fact that we can talk wireless to a man on the moon but we can't talk to someone twenty feet away over a hard-wired intercom at a drive-thru!" - Pottydoctor
Ren, you are one of the lucky ones. I have always had unbelievably sensitive skin and was always looking for ways to deal with the associated difficulties. That's why I was always experimenting and trying to understand what was going on.
As it turns out, I had a skin condition and now use medication. Nevertheless, every product I try and every technique has to be tested separately. The greatest advance in my shaving was finding super sharp blades and, as a result, being able to develope a technique that allowed the lightest shaving, preserving my skin. If it works for me it should work for most, but lucky guys like you don't need to worry.
I always enjoy discussions with you. You're a gentleman and a scholar.
As it turns out, I had a skin condition and now use medication. Nevertheless, every product I try and every technique has to be tested separately. The greatest advance in my shaving was finding super sharp blades and, as a result, being able to develope a technique that allowed the lightest shaving, preserving my skin. If it works for me it should work for most, but lucky guys like you don't need to worry.
I always enjoy discussions with you. You're a gentleman and a scholar.
Joe
update:
this week i switched from the slant to the HD with gillette swedes and noticed from the beginning some better results after really focusing on the bottom of the neck in terms of blade angle, lightest possible pressure and WTG only and keeping in mind "healthy skin rather than a close shave".
i saw some good results in terms of little to no irritation. the red bumps have almost all gone away. no pain. no blood. i'm feeling like my technique is improving also which really changes the way i am feeling about going to shave in the best possible way! this post really helped me get into a place where i needed to be in order to get better results around the bottom of my neck. i really feel like it isn't a problem area anymore. thank you to SMF and its wonderful members!
this week i switched from the slant to the HD with gillette swedes and noticed from the beginning some better results after really focusing on the bottom of the neck in terms of blade angle, lightest possible pressure and WTG only and keeping in mind "healthy skin rather than a close shave".
i saw some good results in terms of little to no irritation. the red bumps have almost all gone away. no pain. no blood. i'm feeling like my technique is improving also which really changes the way i am feeling about going to shave in the best possible way! this post really helped me get into a place where i needed to be in order to get better results around the bottom of my neck. i really feel like it isn't a problem area anymore. thank you to SMF and its wonderful members!
Sal:
That is GREAT news!
I am in the exact same boat. First week with DE razor was KILLING my skin. I nearly gave up. 2nd week was marginally better.
Now I feel I am getting close to mastering shave angle, not using my wrist at all, short strokes, heavy lather, and things are going great.
I also have a super sensitive neck and its starting to really clear up.
Keep at it!
Best of luck.
-Two
That is GREAT news!
I am in the exact same boat. First week with DE razor was KILLING my skin. I nearly gave up. 2nd week was marginally better.
Now I feel I am getting close to mastering shave angle, not using my wrist at all, short strokes, heavy lather, and things are going great.
I also have a super sensitive neck and its starting to really clear up.
Keep at it!
Best of luck.
-Two
I have to second this. I'm in my third week, give or take, of using a DE and have just started to hit a sweet spot once I realized how important the angle is. Even my neck, which has always been a problem area, has shown improvement in the last two days.2 wrote:Sal:
That is GREAT news!
I am in the exact same boat. First week with DE razor was KILLING my skin. I nearly gave up. 2nd week was marginally better.
Now I feel I am getting close to mastering shave angle, not using my wrist at all, short strokes, heavy lather, and things are going great.
I also have a super sensitive neck and its starting to really clear up.
Keep at it!
Best of luck.
-Two
This thread was especially helpful for me from the standpoint of shaving the neck ATG. Anytime I did that, it always felt like I was catching on the hairs and skipping along. Now I have a much better idea as to why and what to do about that.
FWIW, I've found lately that pulling skin around my adam's apple to the side helps get those stragglers that never seem to get cut. Also, Leisureguy's post in his signature had a great tip on this:
This did the trick in getting things flat enough for a quick pass.Another trick is to swallow and hold it—that flattens the Adam’s apple long enough for you to shave it.
Good luck as you continue!
Robert