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bernards66
Duke of Silvertip!
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Post by bernards66 »

Chris, Also, could you tell us again how many passes, and in what directions, you are now using? David is also correct vis a vis 'angle'. Press the razor head to your cheek, handle parallel to the floor. Then, SLOWLY lower the handle in an arch until you feel the blade just touch the skin--STOP!---that is the angle you want to try and maintain throughout the shave.
Regards,
Gordon
shavedyankee
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Post by shavedyankee »

Thanks for the angle tips.

I shave in 2 passes. I go once with the grain. The second time, I go once again with the grain on the cheeks, I use an against the grain pass on my neck. After that, I clean up in the wells of my neck and sometimes just under my chin. I am getting irritation on my cheeks, not the parts I am going against the grain. A one pass shave on the cheeks would leave me still looking as if I didn't shave.

I take a break from shaving every saturday and sunday (barring special events). I will have my best shave on Monday, when the hair is relatively long. I thought some of the irritation could be due to dry skin, so I have been applying moisturizer to my face most evenings. My skin feels nice, but the irritation persists.

I have tried alum, and I don't feel it really worked for me. It was very harsh on my skin. Should I give it another try? What about something like Bump Patrol?

Thanks again.
-- Chris
bernards66
Duke of Silvertip!
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Post by bernards66 »

Chris, Hmm...that's an unusual one. You may be one of those gents who has whiskers that lay very close to the skin. Maybe try doing the second pass on the cheeks XTG , that is; from the ear toward the nose at a slight angle. And remember, short strokes and light pressure. See what happens. What razor and blade are you using again?
Regards,
Gordon
notthesharpest
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Post by notthesharpest »

When a one-pass shave looks un-shaven, it makes me think that either you're holding the safety bar against your face while you shave, or that your blade is not good enough. Make sure the rounded upper cap of the razor is the main thing that touches your skin. Your razor's safety bar should be aimed away from the skin, even though it will of course come in contact with it sometimes.

In other words, when shaving your cheek, keep the handle of the razor pointed at the wall, not at the floor or the ceiling.
shavedyankee
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Post by shavedyankee »

I am using israeli blades and a gillette super speed. I will give that xtg on the cheeks a try. I did it that way once before, but perhaps I was too aggressive.

thanks for the tip, nothesharpest. I will keep that in mind. I am definitely pointing more towards the floor.
-- Chris
notthesharpest
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Post by notthesharpest »

Your razor is excellent, assuming it isn't broken or something. I've never tried the Israeli blades, but they're well known and pretty popular so they shouldn't be a problem either.

I've never seen you shave, but I'm going to go out on a limb with two assumptions:
1. You used cartridge razors before and got accustomed to them.
2. You're holding your double-edge razor more or less the same way as you did with the cartridge model.

On double-edge razors such as your Super Speed, the blade is essentially perpendicular to the handle - that is to say, nearly the opposite of cartridge razors - especially on the latest models such as the Fusion, where the blade really is almost parallel with the handle.

If you point your DE handle at the floor, then that means the blade is aimed straight through your skin. :shock: It will never cut your beard decently when used that way, your shaves will be very irritating, and the results will tend to look red and patchy.

I bet if you change your grip completely, so that the razor is pointing the other way, your shaves will suddenly start to work far better.
brothers
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Post by brothers »

notthesharpest wrote:Your razor is excellent, assuming it isn't broken or something. I've never tried the Israeli blades, but they're well known and pretty popular so they shouldn't be a problem either.

I've never seen you shave, but I'm going to go out on a limb with two assumptions:
1. You used cartridge razors before and got accustomed to them.
2. You're holding your double-edge razor more or less the same way as you did with the cartridge model.

On double-edge razors such as your Super Speed, the blade is essentially perpendicular to the handle - that is to say, nearly the opposite of cartridge razors - especially on the latest models such as the Fusion, where the blade really is almost parallel with the handle.

If you point your DE handle at the floor, then that means the blade is aimed straight through your skin. :shock: It will never cut your beard decently when used that way, your shaves will be very irritating, and the results will tend to look red and patchy.

I bet if you change your grip completely, so that the razor is pointing the other way, your shaves will suddenly start to work far better.
This sounds quite possible. Could be the root of the problem.
Gary

SOTD 99%: Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, soaps & creams, synthetic / badger brushes, Colonial General razor, Kai & Schick blades, straight razors any time, Superior 70 aftershave splash + menthol + 444
shavedyankee
Posts: 52
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Post by shavedyankee »

notthesharpest: I think you are right. I tried holding the razor pointing the handle at the wall. My problem is that if I don't move the handle a little towards the floor, I basically do no shaving. It is just smooth metal moving across my beard. If I tip the blade slightly more towards the floor, but still keep the handle as close to pointing at the wall as possible, I can at least actually shave. Holding the razor pointed almost directly at the wall worked great on my against the grain pass, however.

Is this normal? I watched mantic's videos and have tried to replicate how he holds his blade to his face. I do not hold the blade straight down, but aimed at the wall and tipped down towards the floor so I am cutting hair. I have been really trying to work on this as I feel this is an area I am having a problem. I am guessing I am holding the razor pointed more towards the floor than necessary. It is frustrating, though. No hair comes off if I hold the razor straight towards the wall, and if I angle it I get irritation. I feel like I am searching for that "sweet spot". Also, how long should a shave be taking me? I would say on average I am taking about 10-15 minutes to shave. I feel I move pretty quickly, so I have tried slowing it down. I am getting ready for work in the morning, so I don't want to slow it down TOO much.

Today's shave wasn't bad. I don't seem to have irritation, but that is normal after my weekend shave break. The real test will be in the next few days.

I am going to attempt to make a video of me shaving. Hopefully, it will help with any comments or tips. I will post it in this thread if I continue to have problems.
-- Chris
notthesharpest
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Post by notthesharpest »

Important first point: When your shave goes badly with a lot of irritation, give your skin a rest the next day if possible.

A bad shave is worse than no shave at all.

Ten or fifteen minutes is fine for now. What you want is smooth, light, confident strokes with the razor. Whatever time it takes to get that is worth it. After a few weeks of good shaves, you'll get into a comfortable routine and it will naturally take less time. Don't hurry your shave - if you have to get out the door quick some day and yet you must shave, then use whatever your old tried-and-true method was, to prevent disaster.

You are absolutely correct of course, that if the handle points straight at the wall it won't even shave. What you need is to take that as your normal or base position, and rock the razor ever so slightly off of there until it will just shave and no more. That's the "sweet spot" you're after.

Maybe I was wrong to assume - maybe your grip is fine. There are several basic things that could get in your way, and that's just one of them.

- Good lather. Even excellent lather can always be improved, but if your lather is not good enough then everything else fails.

- Less pressure. Whatever amount of pressure you're putting on the razor, cut that by ninety-nine percent. :) There IS a correct amount of pressure to use. If you are not using enough pressure, you'll know, because your razor is waving in the air near your face and not touching the lather. :lol:

In trying to help, I'm just flailing around, going through whatever main points I can think of. When a fellow's shave is going so badly, often there is one glaring problem such that if he fixes it to a decent level then he can basically get the rest worked out on his own. If we can get something fixed so that your shave is half-way acceptable, then you won't have to quit in frustration. :(
shavedyankee
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Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:54 am

Post by shavedyankee »

Thanks, notthesharpest. I appreciate the tips. I just wanted to give you a clear idea of exactly what I am doing. I am thinking my lather is fine. I can only guess that it is the why I am holding the razor, or the speed. However, if 10-15 minutes isn't too fast...well, I am sure I can go slower..but it must be how I am holding the razor.

Thanks again.
-- Chris
notthesharpest
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Post by notthesharpest »

As far as speed, what matters is not the time on the clock but whether you feel hurried and under pressure, or relaxed and in control. If you have to take longer to master this at first, well, it's worth it. Once you get it working consistently, the "wasted" time disappears.
shavedyankee
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Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:54 am

Post by shavedyankee »

Well, I know many people on this board will not be happy with my new plan, but it is the only thing I know to do at the moment. Currently, my face is torn up. I need to figure out what is going on. So, last night I went out and purchased some Mach 3 blades. Yes, I can already hear the groan....

I used to use a Mach 3 to shave. I would get irritation, and that along with cost was my purpose of moving to a DE razor. However, now I know a lot more about shaving. I need to allow my face to heal before I go back to the DE, plus I figured it would eliminate some variables that could be causing me problems.

I figured if I get little to no irritation using the Mach 3, my problem lies with technique. Currently, I am not sure if I am breaking out in an allergic reaction, or it is truly something I am doing wrong. A better shave with the Mach 3 completely eliminates these variables.

I shaved today using the Mach 3, Taylor's Avocado cream, a badger brush, and Coral Skin Food. I have to say, I got a pretty decent shave. One thing I already noticed was that I think I may be using too much pressure during a DE shave.

I am going to do this for the next week or so, until my face heals and I can gauge results. I will then pick up the DE and give it another go. If I tear my face apart, I will use the Mach 3 to shave until healed and try again.

I know some will say I may not want to go down this route, but I really need to fix up my face. It has been a long time since I used a Mach 3, I figured I should really go back to basics.....
-- Chris
brothers
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Post by brothers »

Nobody here is going to have a problem with you choosing what works best for you. There are several guys here who regularly use the cartridges, and if that's what works, then so be it. I hope that you are able to find a solution to your problems, and when you do, that will be a good thing. Good luck!
Gary

SOTD 99%: Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, soaps & creams, synthetic / badger brushes, Colonial General razor, Kai & Schick blades, straight razors any time, Superior 70 aftershave splash + menthol + 444
notthesharpest
Assistant Dean SMFU
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Post by notthesharpest »

shavedyankee wrote:Well, I know many people on this board will not be happy with my new plan, but it is the only thing I know to do at the moment. Currently, my face is torn up. I need to figure out what is going on. So, last night I went out and purchased some Mach 3 blades. Yes, I can already hear the groan....

I used to use a Mach 3 to shave. I would get irritation, and that along with cost was my purpose of moving to a DE razor. However, now I know a lot more about shaving. I need to allow my face to heal before I go back to the DE, plus I figured it would eliminate some variables that could be causing me problems.

I figured if I get little to no irritation using the Mach 3, my problem lies with technique. Currently, I am not sure if I am breaking out in an allergic reaction, or it is truly something I am doing wrong. A better shave with the Mach 3 completely eliminates these variables.

I shaved today using the Mach 3, Taylor's Avocado cream, a badger brush, and Coral Skin Food. I have to say, I got a pretty decent shave. One thing I already noticed was that I think I may be using too much pressure during a DE shave.

I am going to do this for the next week or so, until my face heals and I can gauge results. I will then pick up the DE and give it another go. If I tear my face apart, I will use the Mach 3 to shave until healed and try again.

I know some will say I may not want to go down this route, but I really need to fix up my face. It has been a long time since I used a Mach 3, I figured I should really go back to basics.....
I think this is a great move under the circumstances. You do need to let your face recover somehow. Not shaving at all for a few days would be ideal - but of course you can't do that if it's a problem at work or whatever.

Compared to your DE, the Mach 3 will absorb a LOT more pressure without hurting you. If you suspect a bit too much pressure with the Mach 3, then it's almost certain that you were using way way way too much pressure last week. In fact, that could be the worst of your problems.

One way to describe a good DE shave is that you should feel like you're just faking it, just going through the motions and not getting anything accomplished. With that feeling, you can get a great shave.

Others have introduced the concept of "negative pressure". Of course it isn't literally true, but the feeling of pulling the razor away from your face while shaving can be a good way to reduce your pressure to something appropriate.

The pressure level that's correct with a DE is so close to zero that we might as well call it zero. Of course there has to be a tiny bit just to keep the razor near your face, but compared to the Mach 3 it will feel like zero or negative.

Eliminating variables is a good plan. The Mach 3 will work pretty well even with crappy lather though, so don't take the lather for granted when you switch again.
shavedyankee
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Post by shavedyankee »

My plan is to keep doing exactly what I was doing before with prep, lather, etc. The only difference is I will be using the Mach 3.

Thanks, guys!
-- Chris
notthesharpest
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Post by notthesharpest »

shavedyankee wrote:My plan is to keep doing exactly what I was doing before with prep, lather, etc. The only difference is I will be using the Mach 3.

Thanks, guys!
Yes, that's exactly the thing to do.

I was only referring to the fact that if your lather needs work, then by using the cartridge razor you may never find that out; cartridges will forgive bad lather much more easily than the DE will.
shavedyankee
Posts: 52
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Post by shavedyankee »

I have been shaving with a Mach 3 now for little over a week, and my problems are basically gone. I am getting nice, irritation free shaves. I am using the Mach 3, Taylor's Avocado cream, Coral Skin Food, and a badger brush. I haven't changed anything other than the blade.

One of the things I noticed after returning to the Mach 3 was that I felt I was using a lot of pressure. I am thinking this is part of my problem with the DE razor.

Today I shaved with the DE razor. I allowed my beard to grow in a bit over the weekend. Since it is a weekend, I knew I could take my time. I concentrated on pressure more than anything else. It felt to me like I was scraping the hair from my face. I don't mean to say it was uncomfortable, just that I could barely feel the blade. I am guessing this is what I want.

At any rate, right now my face is smooth and cool. I got a little irritation going ATG on my neck, but everything else seemed to go well. I used Bump Patrol today rather than the Skin Food. I figured it couldn't hurt to try to protect myself. So far so good, but I can tell this is going to take practice.

I think I am going to continue with this for awhile. I will use the Mach 3 most of the week than switch to the DE for my after weekend shave. After next week, I may try just going back to the DE and see how it goes.

Thanks everyone for the help. As usual, any tips or suggestions are welcome.
-- Chris
notthesharpest
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Post by notthesharpest »

Things are improving.

How is the angle thing turning out?

If you get great shaves with a Mach 3, there's certainly no harm & no shame in continuing to use that.
shavedyankee
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Post by shavedyankee »

The angle thing is another piece I have to work out. I am hoping that as I progress it just kind of comes to me. Sure, I am paying attention, but I am thinking it is best to just not get irritation. It is kind of like I have to go for it all at once.

I am getting good shaves from the Mach 3, but cartridges are expensive and I am looking for a cheaper shaving solution. Overall, the DE is much cheaper. Even with the cost of creams, it is still so much cheaper than having to pay out 20+ for cartridges every month or so. Plus, I kind of like shaving with a DE.

I am sure things will get worked out over time. It is just about practicing!

Thanks.
-- Chris
notthesharpest
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Post by notthesharpest »

shavedyankee wrote:The angle thing is another piece I have to work out. I am hoping that as I progress it just kind of comes to me. Sure, I am paying attention, but I am thinking it is best to just not get irritation. It is kind of like I have to go for it all at once.

I am getting good shaves from the Mach 3, but cartridges are expensive and I am looking for a cheaper shaving solution. Overall, the DE is much cheaper. Even with the cost of creams, it is still so much cheaper than having to pay out 20+ for cartridges every month or so. Plus, I kind of like shaving with a DE.

I am sure things will get worked out over time. It is just about practicing!
Yes, things will all get worked out over time. But no, it is NOT just about practicing. If you practice the wrong way a hundred times, it's still the wrong way. Unfortunately, the angle will never come to you. It's not a particularly complicated concept, but if you didn't get it automatically on your first try, it means you need to learn it. No problem to do so, but you do need to learn it, that's all. All my stupid explanations sound so hard because you're not inside my brain. The real thing is easy once you get it. As soon as you understand the real thing, then throw away all the explaining that it took to get there.

Imagine shaving with a bare razor blade held in your fingers. Notice that you'd need to keep the wide flat of the blade against your skin so that you wouldn't keep cutting yourself? That's it. Keep the wide flat of the blade against your skin. Keep the edge AWAY from your skin.

Imagine cutting trees with a chain saw. Do you point the saw blade at the ground, or at the trees? Pointing at the ground looks like it might give a closer cut and smaller stumps, but in practice it would make a horrible mess and you'd miss the tree half the time.
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