More strops

[drmoss_ca]

I have always been a user of Jemico/Dovo strops. The plain models are good for pastes and the red russian has been my finishing strop. I recently acquired one of Tony Miller's red latigo strops and found it excellent. But it has set me off comparing strops not just for beauty, but for actual benefit in the shaving edge. This week an Illinois 827 turned up - the top of their line. At first glance it is all show, with shiny brass fittings (just like those on an antique strop I was given with two 1/4" thick layers of hide - no curling on that one. Must be an old Fromm.) It is actually two separate strops, each with its own flat leather handle. This is another way of being able to maintain tension on each - the Jemico way is to sew them into a continuous loop so that pulling on the handle tautens both. The flat handles are not as comfortable as the padded Jemico handle, but they work fine. The strop is slightly wider than the Jemico, but not as wide as Tony's best 3" model.





The leather is a bit disappointing to look at. It has been pressed between ridged rollers, so the unused side has a series of deep grooves running across it. Worse, these have impressed on the stropping side, so that it too is like a road with speed bumps/sleeping policemen on it. There are some irregularities in the leather, as if the surface was imperfect and the rolling process has ironed them out in an unskillful fashion.
The linen is quite unusual - a much finer weave than that which I am used to seeing on the Jemicos, which themselves are finer than Tony's. It has a hard finished surface, and I suspect it isn't actually linen. It might be cotton or even a man-made fibre. The words 'Linen Finish' might mean the same as 'made with oranges' on your juice, or 'banana flavoured' on your candy. I might be wrong, but it is suspicious.



So before using I decided to improve the leather surface, using my usual process with lather, pumice stone and neat's foot oil, then letting it lie flat for a few hours. It still has speed bumps, and stropping on it sounds like running a zipper back and forth. Probably needs more work. When it came to using both sides before a shave, I found the 'linen finish' side even noisier than the leather - zip, zip, zip, zip! Then came the softer zop, zop, zop, zop of the the leather side. Then came the surprise: a very sharp razor that was noticeably sharper than its usual state after stropping on the Jemico. Perhaps not as smooth to shave with, a little raw like a new Feather blade in the AC compared to the feel of a chromium oxide polished straight. This has continued all week, and now it occurs to me to try the combination of my usual 10 strokes on the Illinois linen, then 20 on the leather, followed by a very few light strokes on the super smooth Jemico. I might get the best of both worlds tomorrow!
In the meantime, I can recommend this Illinois strop, provided you are willing and able to amend the leather surface prior to use.

Chris

[Heirphoto]

Chris,
I used to sell Illinois strops and owned an 827 myself. What is different between it and most other modern strops is the working side of the leather. It is actually reversed from most others on the market. The flesh (inside) of the leather is the finished working surface and the outer (smoothskin) of the beast is what is the back with the ridges. The rolling compresses the flesh side making it relatively smooth but still leaving considerable texture.

I used to pair these with a 127 which is the smooth, skin out version of the same strop and found it an excellent intermediate strop before finishing. Some older Russian strops were done the same way being rolled and compressed to achieve a hard temper but they typically used the skin as the outer, working surface.

Try to pick up a 127 as well and see what you think of it. When well done they are a fine strop too and I didn't find any of the Illinois as prone to cupping as my Jemicos were. You will find the 127 has a mnuch more user friendly surface needing a minumum of work to use.

I do think "linen finish" is a term refering to the type of weave and not the material. My standard "linen" is cotton as well but I do have real unbleached linen as an option. It will be incorprorated into strops in a few weeks once I get the current production of red latigo and horsehide models finished this week.

Nice reviews you are doing as there are quite a few nice strops out there, all very usable.

Tony

[mparker762]

When I bought my new-production C-Mon from Appleton's a few months ago I also picked up an Illinois 127 ($25 I think, anyway it was a bargain so I said what the heck) and I agree that it is a surprisingly good little strop. It's been kept in the bathroom on the same loop as all my other strops and hasn't shown any tendency to significant cupping. All I needed to do was give it a few drops of Fromm strop dressing.

[drmoss_ca]

That's interesting, Tony, and you are quite right that the unused side is smooth, except for the ridges pressed into it. Why would the manufacturer reverse the leather in this case? Did some barbers prefer this, or was it meant as an intermediate strop before using another made the usual way round? If the latter, it certainly isn't advertised that way now. I shall have to whistle up a 127 and try that out too.

Chris

[FiReSTaRT]

Interesting stuff, Chris. I was planning on getting a vintage piece and restoring it, thus getting a traveller. The bumps are definitely a scary prospect. I like a nice smooth draw. Keep us posted on how much pumice work it takes to correct the issue.

[drmoss_ca]

Well the Illinois 827 'linen', followed by its leather, followed by a few very light strokes on the Jemico red russian gave an excellent shave! None of the Feather-like rawness, and very close. I won't say (as a junior member on SRP did some years ago, that going once with the grain was as good as any other razor going against, and this with a razor that didn't need stropping for forty shaves!) but I shall say it was close and comfortable enough to keep trying this for a while to come. Tomorrow I shall use the 827 and finish with a light polish on Tony's red latigo - it may be better still.

Chris

[Heirphoto]

Chris,
I suspect Illinois (Fromm now day) reveresed the leather to create more friction (draw) in order to make it feel like the vintage Russian leather strops. It does create a lot of friction but at the expense of an often "wooley" strop. Your pumicing should tame that a bit. As an intermediate strop I find it (and other home build reversed leather strops) works well and can replace the linen in many cases. I used to be abkle it get a very oily, matt finish latigo that I used the same way and paired it with a smooth natural leather om my current waxier finish latigo. I was experimenting with pumicing my current latigo and mating that with the same leather left smooth for finishing.

The entire "Russian" thing can be confusing in regards to just what it means for strops. It is supposed to do with the tanning and the resultant red color. Certain tree barks and a long tanning time created an increased draw. One also finds Russian strops that are not only reddish in color but compressed with or without patterns front or back to harden the temper of the leather. Jemico once made a small pebble finished strop that was the color of red rouge and was certainly treated with an abrasive. I suspect this is where Illinois was headed with the 827. Sadly many beauty supply type places sell these with no mention of it's texture.

I have gone down that route as well in both rolling my own strops under pressure and buying hard temper hides as an experiemnt. The jury is still out on that though.

Tony

[FiReSTaRT]

I won't say (as a junior member on SRP did some years ago, that going once with the grain was as good as any other razor going against, and this with a razor that didn't need stropping for forty shaves!)

Somebody read a wee bit too much DOVO propaganda lol. I'll stick with stropping on my Heirloom latigo before every shave and touching up on the Cr2O3 every 5-10

[JohnP]

Chris,
very interesting, that is pretty much what I was doing with my Illinois Russian as well (seemed odd to me to go from such a rough textured leather straight to shaving).
I also have a couple 2-sided leather/linen strops from seller open_razor on ebay which have this same textured surface, and seem to perform similarly, even though they are obvious military production.
John P.

[drmoss_ca]

Illinois 827 then Heirloom latigo = morning bliss. In all my years of straight razor shaves I haven't had it this good. Will compare this week using the Jemico Red Russian and the latigo for the final polish and see, if I can, which is best. Illinois 127, new HandAmerican and plain Jemico will also have to be compared in the next few weeks. This has been a revelation.

Chris

[EL Alamein]

Well the Illinois 827 'linen', followed by its leather, followed by a few very light strokes on the Jemico red russian gave an excellent shave! None of the Feather-like rawness, and very close. I won't say (as a junior member on SRP did some years ago, that going once with the grain was as good as any other razor going against, and this with a razor that didn't need stropping for forty shaves!) but I shall say it was close and comfortable enough to keep trying this for a while to come. Tomorrow I shall use the 827 and finish with a light polish on Tony's red latigo - it may be better still.

Chris

Dr. Moss, thank you for bringing back those memories. I remember the claim quite distinctly, he even challenged me to a duelwith TI's. Do you recall how many times a day he shaved? I think it was three. He didn't care for TI's in those days now he loves them. Tis a wonder what changes experience brings.

I miss a lot of the guys that were on there, especially Judge CArl.

Chris

[EL Alamein]

Chris,
I suspect Illinois (Fromm now day) reveresed the leather to create more friction (draw) in order to make it feel like the vintage Russian leather strops. . . .

Tony

Tony, my very first strop was called "Medal of Award", I purchased it at a Barber supply back in the 80's. It was almost certainly an Illinois/Fromm strop as I have acquired an Illinois strop that is identical except for the manufacturer markings. I wonder if these Medal of Award strops were merely the 827's rebranded as the descriptions here match my old strop almost to a tee.

Is it possible you could shed some light?

Chris

[rtaylor61]

Chris,

Great thread. There is a lot of good information here.

Randy

[halwilson]

Dr. Moss,

Thanks for sharing your observations. I have had one of these 827s for several years and when I first got mine, prior to use, I treated it in a very similar manner as you described. At that time, there was quite a bit of discussion of this strop on the original SRP yahoo forum. I have not used it very regularly since then, and only as an intermediate strop after honing; however, having just read your posts, I have taken a new interest in this most unusual strop.

I recall that there had been some quality issues with the 827s, which had led the late Ray (of Classicshaving) to consider discontinuing them. Whatever the case may be, classicshaving still lists them for sale on their website. It is an odd strop, and back in the good old days of the SRP forum, a letter was written to Fromm (the manufacturer). As I recall, the company rep explained that the linen side had the abrasive embedded directly into the material that was intended to last for the life of the strop. With regard to the leather side, if my memory serves me correctly, the representative considered it an intermediate strop. I know Jim (from Goldbar) liked the 827 and found it very useful after a honing session.

I may not have found it so useful, but at least I found it unusual enough to warrant keeping these past few years. I haven't used it often because I've been getting good results using my regular strops. Several years ago I won a nice Llama brand strop on ebay, and when I started using that strop in combination with a NOS solid silk linen finish (also won on ebay) the quality of my shaves increased dramatically. What you are reporting with your 827 sounds very similar to what I had discovered using my Llama brand strop, namely, that not all strops are cut from the same hide, so to speak, and that one should never underestimate the value of a good strop.

What makes a good strop? I expect, the particular qualities of any well made strop are relative to the user. Some strops work better for particular individuals, whereas different brands offer better results for others. I tried the combination suggested in your posts, using the linen followed by the leather side of the 827, prior to finishing on my Llama strop. Although I got a nice shave, IMHO, I haven't yet found any noticeable improvement from my regular routine. I shall keep on experimenting.

Cheers, Hal

[honedright]

About 6 or 7 months ago I had a 15 minute chat on the phone with Ed Simmon who's father founded the Illinois Razor Strop Company (now Fromm International) back in 1907. Ed has been in the strop making business himself for over 40 years. He started back when IRS was still making high quality strops for companies like Dubl Duck and others.

According to Ed, the #827 Russian was traditionally the best strop to use for wedge bladed straight razors, but is a great strop for hollow grounds as well.
Due to the pronounced grain of the #827, the user is supposed to apply more pressure while stropping with the grain (usually starting from the brass swivel end, if the strop was made correctly), and less pressure against the grain.
This is also true when dressing the strop with the palm, a pumice or even a glass bottle. This will prevent the grain from raising up creating the nappy texture associated with these strops.

Since speaking with Ed and trying his suggestions with my #827, I have notice better results. I've also found that the #827 works well with razors that are somewhat resistent to super keen edges. Possibly due to the extra draw produced by these strops.

A side note: it's great to be able to track down and talk to some of the true old-timers. They often have special knowledge that will be lost forever if it is not preserved by us for posterity. Case in point - the American Hone Company/ Success Barber Supply of Iowa. Just something to think about.

[drmoss_ca]

Fascinating!

Chris

[Heirphoto]

Thanks for the info Scott. It's too bad the sales reps for Fromm are not as aware of the history in these things.

I too have found the high friction strops, like the #827 work best with heavier bladed razors, wedges in particular. I like the smoother ones with less draw for full hollow ground and light, delicate blades. Not sure if it their effectiveness or just that they feel better with more/less pressure depending on blade type.

Tony

[honedright]

Tony,

I just called Fromm one day and asked for their strop expert. The receptionist put Ed Simmon on the phone.

He also said that the smoother strops, especially the horsehide "shell" strops, have always been the preferred strop for hollow ground razors. This is consistent with what you mentioned.

[Heirphoto]

Scott,
You were lucky. My sales rep there would never let me talk with anyone past him despite buying weekly. That and inconsistant quality lead me to produce my own strops. I do still like some of their models though.

Tony

[offshoot]

Illinois 827 then Heirloom latigo = morning bliss...This has been a revelation.

Ha-ha, wierd coincidence. Searched "latigo strop" and found this. I found out wonders of that particular strop combination last weekend. Funny.