Straight razor honing starter set...

Use a straight. You know it makes sense.
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Occam
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Straight razor honing starter set...

Post by Occam »

OK after much thought I just ordered the following things...

DMTD8C DMT DiaSharp Coarse 8" x 3" x 3/8" Diamond Whetstone $41.95
DMTD8E DMT DiaSharp Extra Fine 8" x 3" x 3/8" Diamond Whetstone $41.95
SP306UF Spyderco Ultra Fine Ceramic Bench Stone 8" x 3" $82.95
ACD1091 Steel X Bench Stone and Water Stones Holder from 5-1/2" - 9" Long $19.95
IRS827 Illinois Razor Strop 2.5" x 23" Imperial Russia Leather with Handle $29.95


The DMT coarse stone (325 grit) should serve two purposes - bringing very blunt razors up to the next hone and lapping other whetstones I'll acquire as time goes on. The DMT Extra fine (1200 grit) should do knives admirably and should be able to set bevels on blunter razors. The thing I like about these is that they are diamond based continuous hones that never need flattening. That's a huge plus for me, and they'll do knives which I also like, very well.


The Spyderco Ultrafine is largely based on my good experience with Spydercos other products and Chris' recommendation on another thread. If it's going to be one finishing stone then it may as well be this one. I made sure to get the new 3" stone for ease of honing razors.

The holder because I think that it's essential to have a nice support for the stones.

The Illinois 827 with some reservation as I really wanted a wider 3" strop but the price was just too good to refuse on this one. Same price as a cheap travel or training strop...


For the future I see myself perhaps getting a blue and/or yellow Belgian stone; and a wider 3" cordovan leather strop; so that the 827 becomes an intermediate strop. Also pasted paddles etc. I think my beard is so tough I'll be visiting the Spyderco for a touch up every 10-20 shaves.

What I'm wondering is whether a DMT coarse -> DMT Extra Fine -> Spyderco UF is an acceptable progression. I'm not sure what grit the UF is, but suspect I may need an intermediate stone also.

Anyhow I think I'm sorted for keeping already honed razors up to speed with this set, and have the beginnings of an edge reworking set if ever needed.
Ben

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Post by drmoss_ca »

The Spyderco site has shown the 3" UF hone as out of stock for some time: where did you find one?

The 827 is a fine strop, but I would advise scrubbing it with a flat pumice stone and some waterless hand cleanser, then letting it dry a bit and rubbing in neat's foot oil if possible.

Chris
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Post by Occam »

drmoss_ca wrote:The Spyderco site has shown the 3" UF hone as out of stock for some time: where did you find one?

The 827 is a fine strop, but I would advise scrubbing it with a flat pumice stone and some waterless hand cleanser, then letting it dry a bit and rubbing in neat's foot oil if possible.

Chris
Hi Chris,

I searched high and low to find an online retailer that had both the DMT and Spyderco in stock at good prices (Spyderco is $129.95 RRP)...

http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store ... ?s=SP306UF


They ship internationally also and I think have excellent prices. The DMT stones are $55 at Howard's site and as you can see $13 cheaper here also. Their emails are very prompt, have a choice of shipping, and they're shipping out within 24 hours.

Prior to finding them I was having to order stones and strops from different places paying multiple shipping costs and higher prices for the items. I was surprised to find the Illinois #827 but based on your review and recommendation I thought it was a steal at $29.95 and can easily serve as my only strop until I decide which other strop I want. Ideally that would be an HandAmerican 905 in cordovan.

Regards,
Ben

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sebell
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Post by sebell »

1200 - ~10-12k is a pretty big jump. You may have
to do additional passes on the UF to get it sharp and
smooth, or it may not be feasible. Since you were
getting the UF, I would've picked up the Fine as well
since it is a great stone and works very well before
the UF.

- Scott
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Post by drmoss_ca »

Ah, Knifecenter. I have bought many TI's and strops there, but the last time I ordered from them they indicated that they would not ship to Canada unless the order was a minimum value of something like $200. I told them to keep the item concerned.

Chris
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Post by Occam »

drmoss_ca wrote:Ah, Knifecenter. I have bought many TI's and strops there, but the last time I ordered from them they indicated that they would not ship to Canada unless the order was a minimum value of something like $200. I told them to keep the item concerned.

Chris
I obviously didn't come up against any minimum order constraints with this particular order but these items would cost at least double locally, if you could find them at all. Also we are fortunate in not having to pay any taxes or duties on shipments that have commercial value under $1000 AUD.

YMMV as always (though I don't think there is a minimum to Canada from what I saw on the international shipping pages) :)
Ben

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Post by Occam »

sebell wrote:1200 - ~10-12k is a pretty big jump. You may have
to do additional passes on the UF to get it sharp and
smooth, or it may not be feasible. Since you were
getting the UF, I would've picked up the Fine as well
since it is a great stone and works very well before
the UF.

- Scott
Hi Scott,

I found rating the Spyderco to be the most difficult thing here.

The DMT hones are in US grit scale, the 325 is about 500 on the Japanese and the 1200 grit is actually 1600 to >2000 on the Japanese waterstone grit scale. On the scale chart below 2500 give or take on the Japanese scale.

The Spyderco UF stones on the other hand are graded between 4000 and 6000 on the Japanese scale according to what I've read previously, so let's say 5000 for argument's sake. The Spydercos do tend to become finer with extended use though.

So the progression in Japanese grit is about 500 -> 2500 -> 5000

Not so bad in reality, but time will tell...


Problem with the Fine Spyderco was I couldn't see a 3" wide version. But there is probably room for a blue coticule between the DMT extra fine and the Spyderco UF...

Image

http://spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21087
Ben

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sebell
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Post by sebell »

Yes, I have not seen anything other than the
UF in 3", and even that is tough to find. I have
the Medium, Fine, and Ultra-Fine in 2" hones.
I rarely go the Medium, even new razors need
only the Fine and Ultra-Fine.

The Blue would fit right in there, and you may
end up liking the Coticule more than the UF.
This whole honing thing takes a lot of experim-
entation to find what works best for you.

I just sold my 8x3" Blue and Coticule on SRP,
but you can get them from Howard at
theperfectedge.com

- Scott
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Post by Occam »

sebell wrote:Yes, I have not seen anything other than the
UF in 3", and even that is tough to find. I have
the Medium, Fine, and Ultra-Fine in 2" hones.
I rarely go the Medium, even new razors need
only the Fine and Ultra-Fine.
Scott I suspect Spyderco may bring out a 3" version of the fine in time but I've been a big fan of their ceramic sharpeners for knives for about 12 years now.

I'm quietly confident that the set I've got will serve all my razor needs since I don't see myself delving into the junked razors on eBay often. I have purchased one that I plan to use as the experimental razor before the other two NOS razors arrive.

I won't rule out the pasted strop avenue. It's just that mess of pastes etc doesn't thrill me to be honest, but I can definitely see their merits also.


What I'm really looking forward to is eventually sending out my first straight razor honed to the best of my ability to someone who might be able to reasonably grade it...
Ben

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dada
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Post by dada »

Hi Ben,

I also think the jump is too high. Maybe you can get just a coticule (yellow Belgian) if you don't want to buy both Belgians. The blue Belgian would be a good step between 1200 and the coticule, but it's very slow. People have had success just using the coticule after a coarse hone so you are certain that you can do without the blue.

Having said this - I'd just hone away with what you have first before buying a Belgian - maybe you only need more time, especially if the Spyderco is a fast cutter. I haven't used a Spyderco so cannot comment on it, unfortunately

If you are not working on rehabs I can't see why you got the DMTs, most normal razors should be alright without 320 and 1200. I myself use 600 and 1200 DMT but sometimes I do work on some really dull edges and also take out big chips.

For reference, my arsenal is: DMT 600, 1200, couple of Belgian combos (blue and yellow), several Eschers, a vintage Thuringian, some barber hones, and some very high grit Japanese hones. Then sometimes I hit Chromium and newspaper.

And if you decide - I'd be glad to check your edge (but since you're in Australia, I'd recommend a local member for speed and convenience)

Cheers
Ivo
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Post by Occam »

dada wrote: Having said this - I'd just hone away with what you have first before buying a Belgian - maybe you only need more time, especially if the Spyderco is a fast cutter. I haven't used a Spyderco so cannot comment on it, unfortunately
Hi Ivo,

The DMTs are for the inevitable rehabs that I'll work on, but also for my knives...

The Spyderco does cut quickly in my experience but I have not owned the Ultrafine.

The Spyderco company rates the UF as 2000 grit (US grade) so that would be 4000 Japanese. It's a hard hone to rate as it is not made of stone. It cuts like a 4000 Japanese but polishes like a much higher grit stone 6000+ from what I've read.

So only time will tell...
Ben

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Post by dada »

um, 6000 is kinda low for me - but I hear the German guys shave off the blue Belgian which is probably 4000-6000 and Bruno on SRP shaved off DMT 325 the other day :shock: (he's got more stones than me, I only do HHTs on 600 :lol: )

Cheers
Ivo

edit: I always thought the UF was at least 10K
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Post by Occam »

dada wrote: edit: I always thought the UF was at least 10K
Here is a video of a Spyderco rep unequivocally stating that the Ultrafine is a 2000 US grit hone...

http://woodtools.com/family.aspx?family ... ideos#tabs


In the table above you can again see that the compiler has put the Ultrafine (UF) in the "Sharpmaker" (Spydercos trademark) column at 2000 US grit. Other very experienced Spyderco knife people put it at this since they say they can't get a mirror finish on the edge which occurs at 6000+ Japanese.

Now I have to say that I'm not sure which I'll like better. If one looks at a Feather blade it is not mirror finish at all and in fact looks like a very scratchy pattern at the edge with a very long bevel. It is known for its exceptional sharpness. The Merkur blades on the other hand have a mirror finish at the edge on a smaller bevel and are horrible shavers for me.

Nevertheless Spyderco have stated that the fine and ultrafine are actually made from the same ceramic but with differences in the length of firing in a kiln and surface etching etc so take that for what it is worth. These are not standard materials and therefore can't be easily slotted into the scale based on the 'grit' material characteristic. The best that can be done is to give an approximation or an equivalent value of "grit". I think that if Spyderco says publicly that these are 2000 US grit then I really have no reason to doubt them.

Whether the 2000 US grit translates into all the characteristics of 2000 US grit material is not clear. Does the 2000 US grit mean that it removes metal at the same rate as another 2000 grit material or does it provide the same amount of scratch pattern? I don't know. I do know that my other ceramic stones remove material pretty efficiently...

What I also know from my other Spyderco ceramic stones is that they do tend towards more smoothness with time. So they may well give more polish than a 2000 US grit in time.
Ben

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Post by drmoss_ca »

That might explain my experience with the UF hone. I never found it much use until I lapped it on a Shapton diamond lapping plate, and now it seems to function nicely between the 8k and 15k Shaptons.

Chris
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Post by Occam »

drmoss_ca wrote:That might explain my experience with the UF hone. I never found it much use until I lapped it on a Shapton diamond lapping plate, and now it seems to function nicely between the 8k and 15k Shaptons.

Chris
Chris, it sounds like lapping this stone almost certainly destroys its "factory setting" of 2000 US grit. It sounds like those etching marks are important surface characteristics.

The Spyderco UF is supposed to be flat from the factory (unlike the fine and medium which can be less true), to within a small tolerance. The tolerance is worse than for say the DMT hones or even the Shapton so lapping *may* improve this flatness (but irreversibly alter its characteristics).

I say may because when the tolerances are so small, unless you have a lapping stone that is large enough that it stays in full contact with the stone being lapped at all times you can generate areas of untrueness yourself such as when part of the stone being lapped comes off the edge of the lapping hone and goes into negative territory.

I won't be lapping the Spyderco UF and treating it as 4000-6000 grit stone and if this is not working then I'll look for other avenues.
Ben

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Post by dada »

Oh - maybe this is why I remember I read people saying it's a high grit hone - guess they lapped it too. B&B had a long thread on the UF, and by the looks of it they certainly thought it's much higher than 2K...

Good luck - and keep us posted, Ben!
Ivo
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Post by sebell »

Interesting. I have not lapped my UF, and have
had great shaves coming right off that hone. I
sometimes give a razor 10 passes on chromium
afterwards, but I haven't noticed a significant
difference in shave smoothness.

I wonder if Tim Zowada lapped his UF before
using it and photographing the magnified results?
It seemed to perform as an extremely fine stone
in that situation.

- Scott
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Post by rustyblade »

Where can I find SpyderCo hones? (that ship to Canada)
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Post by drmoss_ca »

rustyblade wrote:Where can I find SpyderCo hones? (that ship to Canada)
http://www.spyderco.com/catalog/list.ph ... =sharpener

Chris
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Post by sebell »

I purchased mine from the following location:

http://bestdarnproducts.com/sharpeners- ... tones.html

They ship to Canada and I had no issues with
them, but some have reported delays in shipping
and lack of communication.

- Scott
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