Honing Help

Use a straight. You know it makes sense.
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rustyblade
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Honing Help

Post by rustyblade »

I am honing this razor for somebody and I'm having a little trouble. This is a beautiful old W&B with a nice scalloped worked back. Section 1 of the razor I can get shave sharp, but Section 2 will not. The razor only touches the hone on A and B due to the worked back which makes honing a real treat to begin with. Also, Section B is .64mm thinner than Section A so there is a little bit of rocking on the hone making things even more delightfully interesting. Other than that, this razor is a lovely piece, but I'm afraid it will have to go back to the owner in its current condition because I've tried all my tricks including stropping on 6 micron paste (which works wonders btw on section 1). Any tips, tricks?


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Richard
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Post by kaptain_zero »

Richard, this is one of those things that is easier to do than to explain. The worked back makes a little be more tricky if there isn't contact points all the way along the spine although I would have thought there should be.

Anywho... with my 13/16 Clauss that also has the smile in the edge and the sway in the spine, I tend to hone with the heel of the blade leading in the stroke and the blade at about a 45 degree angle. As I move the blade along the stone I also use the X pattern, sliding the heel of the blade off the stone so that the honing pressure transfers towards the point of the blade. I also do an ever so slight rocking motion by lifting the heel end of the blade up but it's a very minor movement. If you lift too much you start rounding off the point. A narrow stone would also be a good solution to honing these types of blades but the important thing to remember is that they are not meant to sit flat on a stone when honing, you have to rock the blade or use a narrow stone to maintain the deliberate smile in the edge that mirrors the sway in the spine.

I really like my blue coticule for this kind of razor as it's easy to see what portion of the blade edge is being honed by looking at how the water moves in front of the edge. The Norton stone isn't quite as easy to work with using this trick. It should also work with your yellow coticule but again, the light color of the stone might make it hard to see. I also like using a barbers hone for the same reason, easy to see as well as I find it a bit easier when holding the small stone on the palm of my hand but a larger bench stone works fine too. Seeing you have already gotten the rear portion of the blade up to snuff, you should work just on the front half of the blade by letting the rear hang off the edge of the stone (as it does towards the end of an X stroke) for say 3 strokes and then the fourth stroke could be a full blade stroke, just to blend the extra work back into the rest of the blade.

Like I said, it's easier to do than explain... Please ask questions if this is not clear and I'll try to clarify my description. It's not hard to do, once you get the feel for it... my Clauss was the second razor I successfully honed for myself and since I got my coticule stones, it's now my best shaver.

Regards

Christian
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Post by kaptain_zero »

I neglected one small point. When I hone as described above, I also bend my wrist slightly through the stroke so that the point or tip of the blade moves in an arc. That 45 degree angle at the start ends up being maybe a 20 degree angle at the end of the stroke.... like I said, it's easy to do, hard to describe in a few words. <sigh>

Christian
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Post by rustyblade »

Christian, I tried an X pattern already (without the 45 angle though) and I find that the razor becomes unstable as soon as Section A leaves the hone. I would really like to get this razor shave ready for this guy but I'm not sure about continuing the headache it is giving me.

I was having great success with a bunch of ebay razors and then for some reason the last 4-5 I bought have sat in my honing drawer and are giving me nightmares. Uneven spines, warps, frowns. Bugger them all. Great learning process even though it can be frustrating at times.
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Post by Occam »

Sounds like a slight warp in the blade.

There's two things to try as far as I can see. First would be to use some finger pressure on the distal blade to ensure a contact with the hone at all points.

Second, you could tape the spine and rework the bevel with a 325 - 1200 - higher.

I'd probably use light finger pressure first.
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Post by kaptain_zero »

rustyblade wrote:Christian, I tried an X pattern already (without the 45 angle though) and I find that the razor becomes unstable as soon as Section A leaves the hone. I would really like to get this razor shave ready for this guy but I'm not sure about continuing the headache it is giving me.

I was having great success with a bunch of ebay razors and then for some reason the last 4-5 I bought have sat in my honing drawer and are giving me nightmares. Uneven spines, warps, frowns. Bugger them all. Great learning process even though it can be frustrating at times.
Well, it's never much fun when working on someone else's pride and joy if things aren't going well. Do try to lead with the heel of the blade, that should make it more stable and you don't actually have to bring the heel off the side of the stone, you can just rock the blade by lifting the handle end slightly and it should transfer the honing pressure towards section 2 as per your diagram. Just remember, it's not two flat sections but rather a radius you are trying to sharpen. There should only be a small area of contact between the blade and hone at all times. You then want this contact point to travel down the edge from the heel to the tip so that the whole edge gets sharpened evenly. What often happens if it's been honed by someone who thinks it is just supposed to lie flat on the stone is that you end up with a series of straight sections along the edge instead of a smooth radius or curve/smile. Taken to it's extreme you could end up with a frown on the blade. Every stroke on the stone requires a rocking motion unless you use a very narrow (1" or even less) stone.

You don't mention what stone you are working on right now... if it's the coticule, it's quite slow cutting if you keep the slurry thin and that should give you time to get the feel of the stroke require to do the job right. By the sounds of things, you might have to work that edge back into an even radius but not this time around, that kind of work should be done a little at a time whenever the razor needs to be honed anyway as there is no sense in wasting steel. The most important thing right now is to get section 2 in shape and then blend the two sections back together. You can use a black magic marker on the bevel to help you see exactly where along the edge you are honing and thus figure out what you have to do to get the section 2 of the edge honed.

Hope this makes sense to you....

Regards

Christian
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Post by kaptain_zero »

Occam wrote:Sounds like a slight warp in the blade.

There's two things to try as far as I can see. First would be to use some finger pressure on the distal blade to ensure a contact with the hone at all points.

Second, you could tape the spine and rework the bevel with a 325 - 1200 - higher.

I'd probably use light finger pressure first.
You cannot have contact at all points of the edge at the same time on a flat hone with a smiling blade/swaybacked razor. The razor will rock and must rock during honing in order to maintain that smile using a wide hone. Alternate solution is to use a very narrow hone, this negates most of the need for rocking the blade in order to hone the edge evenly.

Considering this razor does not belong to Richard and that he is having some issues getting it honed, I don't think reworking the bevel is the right solution at this time.

Regards

Christian
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Post by Occam »

A difficult problem indeed. Surely this is where honemeister's years of experience comes into play...
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Post by rustyblade »

On closer inspection it appears the toe is slightly warped. :x
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Post by dada »

Richard, you have great advice from Christian already - try it and share progress with us!

For warps I love using narrow hones but others have reported success with focusing on using just the last inch or so of a wider hone

And I hear you - if it's one of your own it's OK, but if it's for someone else this can be very frustrating

Cheers
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Post by mparker762 »

rustyblade wrote:On closer inspection it appears the toe is slightly warped. :x
two words: pasted hanger
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Post by rustyblade »

mparker762 wrote:
rustyblade wrote:On closer inspection it appears the toe is slightly warped. :x
two words: pasted hanger
That was my first line of attack and it worked wonders on Section 1 but not the toe. I even concentrated stropping only the toe (6 micron pasted strop) and it still didn't work. Grumble.
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Post by mparker762 »

rustyblade wrote:That was my first line of attack and it worked wonders on Section 1 but not the toe. I even concentrated stropping only the toe (6 micron pasted strop) and it still didn't work. Grumble.
What does the magic marker test show you (it works for strops too)? Which part isn't being hit by the pasted strop?
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Post by rustyblade »

mparker762 wrote:
rustyblade wrote:That was my first line of attack and it worked wonders on Section 1 but not the toe. I even concentrated stropping only the toe (6 micron pasted strop) and it still didn't work. Grumble.
What does the magic marker test show you (it works for strops too)? Which part isn't being hit by the pasted strop?
I'll try that, thanks.
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Post by rustyblade »

mparker762 wrote:
rustyblade wrote:That was my first line of attack and it worked wonders on Section 1 but not the toe. I even concentrated stropping only the toe (6 micron pasted strop) and it still didn't work. Grumble.
What does the magic marker test show you (it works for strops too)? Which part isn't being hit by the pasted strop?
I tried magic marker on the blade and then honed it on a yellow coticule. Interestingly after a few trips the marker came off so all parts are touching the blade. I honed the razor for about 15 minutes and it seems the not-so-sharp area is getting smaller. Hopefully more time on the hone will solve this.

Why is this though? If all parts of the blade are touching the hone, why is the toe taking so damn long to sharpen versus the rest of the blade? I am impressed with the sharpened area though, super-duper sharp.
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Post by mparker762 »

too much/too little pressure, you're tipping it up slightly when you flip, or the bevel is wider, or the speed it too high (esp if you're arcing the blade on the hone) or some such. Lots of possibilities.
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