Trouble Honing a Fillarmonica 13 from classic shaving

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loueedacat1
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Trouble Honing a Fillarmonica 13 from classic shaving

Post by loueedacat1 » Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:24 pm

I've gotten a great edge using a new coticule on a dovo and basic le grelot.

I also have a fillarmonica 13 with a big smile that was originally honed by lynn abrams, then I used it 12 times (with great shaves) at which point it got dull and tugged. I coticuled it and its totally smooth but isn't cutting very close. I get ok shaves with four passes and face feels great, but its not cutting close.

Normally if my blade isn't sharp it doesn't cut well at all and tugs and hurts. This is smooth as could be and cuts ok eventually but something clearly isn't right because I usually only need two passes and get closer than I'm getting in four passes with this filly. Its known to be a cranky razoe to hone.

Anyone have any ideas what I might be doing wrong to get baby smooth, no tugging, but not close shaves from a fillarmonica with big smile?

Do you think the bevel isn't right or do I jiust need to keep working on my coticule technique since maybe the steel is jiust extra hard or something.

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Post by EL Alamein » Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:15 pm

Did you do the advanced honing technique or just simple X pattern on the coticule? Advanced being doing some quick strokes concentrating on the tip then on the heal so that a frown doesn't form.

Sometimes in my experience it's good to get a good slurry going on the coticule then take the blade to it and polish that bevel a good deal. Then clear off the swarf and slurry then with water only hone away until it's slicing hairs (root down) silently. Try to keep the stone slury free while doing this final polishing. Refresh the water if necessary by rinsing the hone from time to time. Use the advanced technique as much as possible or if you can lay the whole blade on the hone for a whole stroke do so. Just keep working it until you get it where you want.

If that's not satisfying you use a pasted strop to put a final finish on the blade. Many recommend the CO2 or the .25 micron diamond paste. But beware that will make the blade much sharper and you'll sacrifice some smoothness. Coticule honed blades are great but you won't get as close on one pass as you would if you use a pasted strop to finalize the edge.

I personally don't use pasted strops. I use a Belgian hone only on my personal razors. It's sharp enough to get me BBS in two to three passes. It's also forgiving enough and smooth enough not to irritate my skin.

Hope the helps.

Chris

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Post by loueedacat1 » Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:05 pm

Chris, I was hoping you would reply, and that's very helpful.

1. Where can I find more (either video or diagram or explanations) on the advanced honing technique? I mostly did just X strokes, but tried feebly to do sort of a rolling X so I'd hit the point and heel. Having said that, my issue is all along the blade, not just the point and heel.

For the adv. technique you are referring to, do you mean separate toe only and heel only strokes?

2. I more or less did what you said on going from slurry to just wet, but will try to be more disciplined about it.

3. Sounds like you are not concerned I'm over-honing, because you are recommending honing away? I only ask bec I got a response on SRP that I might be overhoning and that doesn't sound right to me because it's smooth and not tugging or cutting and it's not going flat (ie breaking fin/burr) after use. I don't think overhoning is the issue bec I did the same amount of lapping with two other blades and they are working great.

4. I want to stay away from pasted strops if I can. I've had bad experiences with them messing up my blade and I don't like the artificial sharpness.

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Post by drmoss_ca » Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:02 pm

Now you see why I don't recommend stainless razors to start out with! You can either get some carbon steel razors and become proficient at honing them, or continue honing away at the Filarmonica until you finally get there. No one need ever worry about over-honing stainless steel. Not in one lifetime.

Chris
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Post by xChris » Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:40 pm

Those Filly razors are pretty hard too. It may be a case that you're not removing enough metal to get to the final edge, and winding up polishing an edge that's not yet quite "sharp."
Chris

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Post by EL Alamein » Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:52 pm

loueedacat1 wrote:1. Where can I find more (either video or diagram or explanations) on the advanced honing technique? I mostly did just X strokes, but tried feebly to do sort of a rolling X so I'd hit the point and heel. Having said that, my issue is all along the blade, not just the point and heel.
Over at SRP they have a scanned copy of the 1961 Barber Textbook. In the honing section it describes advanced honing. Essentially you do strokes on the toe and heal then the whole blade. This makes or preserves a smile. It works well.
loueedacat1 wrote:For the adv. technique you are referring to, do you mean separate toe only and heel only strokes?
Yep. See above.
loueedacat1 wrote:2. I more or less did what you said on going from slurry to just wet, but will try to be more disciplined about it.
Just go lite on the pressure but be confident and disciplined.
loueedacat1 wrote:3. Sounds like you are not concerned I'm over-honing, because you are recommending honing away? I only ask bec I got a response on SRP that I might be overhoning and that doesn't sound right to me because it's smooth and not tugging or cutting and it's not going flat (ie breaking fin/burr) after use. I don't think overhoning is the issue bec I did the same amount of lapping with two other blades and they are working great.
If you're using a Belgian yellow coticule and water I'm not worried about overhoning. With WATER only it's nigh impossible to overhone with a coticule. If you're using lather then you can overhone. I've done it.
loueedacat1 wrote:4. I want to stay away from pasted strops if I can. I've had bad experiences with them messing up my blade and I don't like the artificial sharpness.
Yeah, that's just cheatin' anyway. Just be warned that you may have to do more passes to get as smooth a shave. I'm not sure how Lynn finished the blade.

Is this blade stainless? I thought Filly's were carbon.

Chris

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Post by loueedacat1 » Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:09 pm

These responses are really helpful. This forum is underutilized for straight razor questions. I think you all are right - I'm not overhoning, I'm just not getting it sharp [dagnabbit!]. Fortunately I have other easier razors that can keep me sane while I figure out how to scewer this big white whale of a razor.

Chris, I don't know if it's stainless. It's the limted addition doble temple fillarmonica from classic shaving:

- Special Notice -

Filarmonica, famous for producing professional quality straight razors for barbers and hair stylists throughout Europe for nearly 100 years, has decided to discontinue production. While they will be remaining in business manufacturing hair scissors, manicure implements and replaceable-blade razors they will no longer be producing traditional straight razors.

ClassicShaving.com is honored to have been selected by Filarmonica to manage the liquidation of their remaining stocks of traditional straight razors. The models represented here are brand new, factory fresh and are all that remain of this time-honored brand worldwide, and they are being offered here at special liquidation pricing. Quantities are limited to "stock on hand" and subject to prior sale.

_______________________________________________________________

Filarmonica - Since 1915

Filarmonica Doble Temple 7/8

The Professional's Choice

_______________________________________________________

The Famous Filarmonica "Doble Temple" (double tempered) razors have been long respected for their ability to easily take and hold a superior razor-sharp edge.

This 7/8 Full Hollow Ground razor is the quintessential "Shaver's Razor" - Long on performance and short on frills! The blade actually measures 15/16" so whether you consider it a 7/8 or an 8/8 you'd be equally correct. It is forged from the best Surgical Steel available and takes an exceptional edge with a minimum of effort. The weight and feel of the razor in your hand is unlike any other - It actually does all the work for you!

This razor was designed and intended for the Professional who makes his living shaving faces all day. It is no wonder that it serves the purpose so masterfully!

A simple laser etch on the blade front identifies it as a Filarmonica and the equally plain but functional handle is a perfect match - No gold, no inlays, just a beefy three-pin composite handle that is more than up-to-the-task of years of daily work.

Don't miss out on this "Last Chance" to own one of these quality razors at a super price.

loueedacat1
Posts: 1163
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:43 pm
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Post by loueedacat1 » Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:10 pm

These responses are really helpful. This forum is underutilized for straight razor questions. I think you all are right - I'm not overhoning, I'm just not getting it sharp [dagnabbit!]. Fortunately I have other easier razors that can keep me sane while I figure out how to scewer this big white whale of a razor.

Chris, I don't know if it's stainless. It's the limted addition doble temple fillarmonica from classic shaving:

- Special Notice -

Filarmonica, famous for producing professional quality straight razors for barbers and hair stylists throughout Europe for nearly 100 years, has decided to discontinue production. While they will be remaining in business manufacturing hair scissors, manicure implements and replaceable-blade razors they will no longer be producing traditional straight razors.

ClassicShaving.com is honored to have been selected by Filarmonica to manage the liquidation of their remaining stocks of traditional straight razors. The models represented here are brand new, factory fresh and are all that remain of this time-honored brand worldwide, and they are being offered here at special liquidation pricing. Quantities are limited to "stock on hand" and subject to prior sale.

_______________________________________________________________

Filarmonica - Since 1915

Filarmonica Doble Temple 7/8

The Professional's Choice

_______________________________________________________

The Famous Filarmonica "Doble Temple" (double tempered) razors have been long respected for their ability to easily take and hold a superior razor-sharp edge.

This 7/8 Full Hollow Ground razor is the quintessential "Shaver's Razor" - Long on performance and short on frills! The blade actually measures 15/16" so whether you consider it a 7/8 or an 8/8 you'd be equally correct. It is forged from the best Surgical Steel available and takes an exceptional edge with a minimum of effort. The weight and feel of the razor in your hand is unlike any other - It actually does all the work for you!

This razor was designed and intended for the Professional who makes his living shaving faces all day. It is no wonder that it serves the purpose so masterfully!

A simple laser etch on the blade front identifies it as a Filarmonica and the equally plain but functional handle is a perfect match - No gold, no inlays, just a beefy three-pin composite handle that is more than up-to-the-task of years of daily work.

Don't miss out on this "Last Chance" to own one of these quality razors at a super price.

loueedacat1
Posts: 1163
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:43 pm
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Post by loueedacat1 » Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:11 pm

xChris wrote:Those Filly razors are pretty hard too. It may be a case that you're not removing enough metal to get to the final edge, and winding up polishing an edge that's not yet quite "sharp."
I think that's what it is. More honing for me. :D

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Post by EL Alamein » Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:26 pm

loueedacat1 wrote:
xChris wrote:Those Filly razors are pretty hard too. It may be a case that you're not removing enough metal to get to the final edge, and winding up polishing an edge that's not yet quite "sharp."
I think that's what it is. More honing for me. :D
You can always move things along a little faster by using the Nortons stones: go 4k then 8k then back to the coticule for a 50 to 100 laps, no slurry needed.

Chris

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Post by loueedacat1 » Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:33 pm

EL Alamein wrote:
loueedacat1 wrote:
xChris wrote:Those Filly razors are pretty hard too. It may be a case that you're not removing enough metal to get to the final edge, and winding up polishing an edge that's not yet quite "sharp."
I think that's what it is. More honing for me. :D
You can always move things along a little faster by using the Nortons stones: go 4k then 8k then back to the coticule for a 50 to 100 laps, no slurry needed.

Chris
Dang it! I was trying to stick with one stone for now. :D I think I'll have to hit up howard for that blue coticule and DMT 1200 sooner than the holiday season (when my wife will be distracted giving birth) after all.

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Post by EL Alamein » Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:41 pm

loueedacat1 wrote: Dang it! I was trying to stick with one stone for now. :D I think I'll have to hit up howard for that blue coticule and DMT 1200 sooner than the holiday season (when my wife will be distracted giving birth) after all.
Ah, congratulations on the forthcoming little one. My best wishes for a safe delivery and a happy and healthy recovery for mom and child.

Now about those Belgian blues. Some people like them but they are painfully slow IMHO. A Norton 4/8k is a workhorse of a stone that will consistently get you to where you need to be before finishing on the yellow coticule. They're also a lot faster.

If you get the DMT I would only use it on your hones to flatten them - especially a norton 4/8k combo, you always have to make sure they're flat. It's too course for the razor.

Chris

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Post by loueedacat1 » Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:12 pm

EL Alamein wrote: If you get the DMT I would only use it on your hones to flatten them - especially a norton 4/8k combo, you always have to make sure they're flat. It's too course for the razor.

Chris
This is so interesting because people have such different views. Some recommend 1200 DMT and blue. Many many say nortons are great. But I've seen many who say they don't "get" nortons and shuck them when they get someting better (shapton or DMT or blue).

I do have a 325 DMT for lapping only, but thought 1200 was a good "if it's too blunt for the blue" stone. You think 1200 is too rough on razors though? Is it bad on the blade or just only to be used in rare, really bad ebay special types?

Nortons are so reasonable there isn't much to lose with them in any event.

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Post by EL Alamein » Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:23 pm

loueedacat1 wrote:
This is so interesting because people have such different views. Some recommend 1200 DMT and blue. Many many say nortons are great. But I've seen many who say they don't "get" nortons and shuck them when they get someting better (shapton or DMT or blue).

I do have a 325 DMT for lapping only, but thought 1200 was a good "if it's too blunt for the blue" stone. You think 1200 is too rough on razors though? Is it bad on the blade or just only to be used in rare, really bad ebay special types?

Nortons are so reasonable there isn't much to lose with them in any event.
Everything I've read about DMT hones mentions they are not fine enough for razor and just shred the edge on a microscopic layer because of the way they make deep gouges. I never tried one but nothing has convinced me that I need to. You do need something to keep a Norton flat or even a Belgian (if you do a lot of honing) so a good flattening hone is what's needed. DMT's are recommended for this task for the Belgians and I imagine can do pretty well on the Nortons. Norton makes their own flattening stone and I have it. Works ok but it's so course it leaves grooves in the stone that are too deep to just take a razor to it. After I flatten the Norton I take my Col Conk Arkansas special (that near worthless white hone they sell) and use it to smooth out that Norton. Works like a charm. A DMT might be suited for this kind of work but I would just keep it away from your razor. You could always experiment and find out for yourself though.

As for some people liking Nortons and others not - there are many roads to Rome and I believe everyone's got their favorite. The only reason I like Norton is because they are very consistent for me and they're pretty cheap considering. I use them mostly when I have a lot of work or setting the bevel. For my personal razors it's just a yellow Belgian and that's all. I don't use the Norton for any kind of maintenance role though it can be used that way.

Chris

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Post by kaptain_zero » Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:07 pm

Well, I'll jump in on the DMT 1200 issue seeing I have one, and a Norton 4k/8k, and a Belgian blue, Coticule, Shaptons 2k, 4k, 8k, 16k, Belgisher Brocken, Thuringen, Swaty, DMT 325.....ok, I give up, I don't have time for all this typing! :oops:

Like Chris said, pretty much all roads lead to Rome and we all do eventually find our favorites... well..... I have not, as of yet, but if I buy another 50 hones or so, I should have it narrowed down to the top 60! :twisted:

The DMT 1200 can be used for setting a bevel. Typical use would be on a dull as a butter knife ebay/antique store find that are no where near having any kind of edge or for honing out large nicks. That said, mine is in my woodworking shop for uses other than razors as I just don't like the feel when honing on it. It has a sticky/grabby feel to me and as I have other hones that work better *for me*, I'll stick to them. DMT actually has a newer 8000 grit hone that some use to get a near shave ready edge on a straight so it is entirely possible to use certain diamond hones for sharpening razors but I don't feel they are the best choice.

My Belgian Blue has a special place in my heart, I just love the feel of that hone and use it with a good slurry. Now, it's no speed demon but that's an advantage when starting out... it's hard to hone yourself into trouble with the Blue as you actually have to work at it. A Shapton on the other hand cuts quite quickly and you have to keep on your toes so you don't go overboard. Nortons are faster too, they do have the ability to overhone and that's probably the reason for the use of pyramids in an attempt to avoid that from happening.

With the arrival of the Shaptons, my Blue and Coticule have taken a back seat as I attempt to ferret out improved edges with them. I have succeeded in attaining superior sharpness with the Shaptons but the past couple of days have found me going back to the Coticule to mellow the edges ever so slightly, make them a bit smoother shaving.... and doing so was a snap.

Now, as far as I am concerned, I reach for the Blue when I need to bring a razor back from beyond slightly dull.... as per your description, I would use the blue on your razor with a good slurry... but, only because I have one! If I only had the Coticule, I would use a slurry with that one instead and when I was happy with the edge, I'd clean off the slurry and using only water, bring the edge to it's final polish with somewhere around 50 or more laps.

The Blue FEELS nice to me, it was the perfect hone for learning the rolling stroke you need to use to get a smiling razor sharp... Chris described how to work each section separately which is how I did it to start as well but after a while you can learn to do a rolling stroke that starts with the heel leading and gently transfer the honing pressure to the toe in one smooth scything arc on the hone. Blue or Yellow, either will do the job but it may take some time. You describe the razor as sharp enough to shave smoothly but not as sharp as you would like... might as well use the Coticule to slowly work your way to perfection. You'll get plenty of honing practice, learn more about smiling razors and how to sharpen them and ultimately learn how to get the most from those wonderful little pieces of rock we call Coticules. :mrgreen:

Well it's either that or you can join me in the gutter... all my money spent on amassing more and more hones, just to prove I had the right one from the start.......<sigh>. Be kind, the next time you walk past a fellow, down and out on his luck who goes "Psst.... buddy..... could you spare a dime for some shaving cream?"

Regards

Kaptain "Let he who is without dull edges, cast the first hone." Zero
Previously lost, on the way to the pasture. Now pasteurized.

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Post by loueedacat1 » Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:33 pm

kaptain_zero wrote:Well, I'll jump in on the DMT 1200 issue seeing I have one, and a Norton 4k/8k, and a Belgian blue, Coticule, Shaptons 2k, 4k, 8k, 16k, Belgisher Brocken, Thuringen, Swaty, DMT 325.....ok, I give up, I don't have time for all this typing! :oops:

Like Chris said, pretty much all roads lead to Rome and we all do eventually find our favorites... well..... I have not, as of yet, but if I buy another 50 hones or so, I should have it narrowed down to the top 60! :twisted:

The DMT 1200 can be used for setting a bevel. Typical use would be on a dull as a butter knife ebay/antique store find that are no where near having any kind of edge or for honing out large nicks. That said, mine is in my woodworking shop for uses other than razors as I just don't like the feel when honing on it. It has a sticky/grabby feel to me and as I have other hones that work better *for me*, I'll stick to them. DMT actually has a newer 8000 grit hone that some use to get a near shave ready edge on a straight so it is entirely possible to use certain diamond hones for sharpening razors but I don't feel they are the best choice.

My Belgian Blue has a special place in my heart, I just love the feel of that hone and use it with a good slurry. Now, it's no speed demon but that's an advantage when starting out... it's hard to hone yourself into trouble with the Blue as you actually have to work at it. A Shapton on the other hand cuts quite quickly and you have to keep on your toes so you don't go overboard. Nortons are faster too, they do have the ability to overhone and that's probably the reason for the use of pyramids in an attempt to avoid that from happening.

With the arrival of the Shaptons, my Blue and Coticule have taken a back seat as I attempt to ferret out improved edges with them. I have succeeded in attaining superior sharpness with the Shaptons but the past couple of days have found me going back to the Coticule to mellow the edges ever so slightly, make them a bit smoother shaving.... and doing so was a snap.

Now, as far as I am concerned, I reach for the Blue when I need to bring a razor back from beyond slightly dull.... as per your description, I would use the blue on your razor with a good slurry... but, only because I have one! If I only had the Coticule, I would use a slurry with that one instead and when I was happy with the edge, I'd clean off the slurry and using only water, bring the edge to it's final polish with somewhere around 50 or more laps.

The Blue FEELS nice to me, it was the perfect hone for learning the rolling stroke you need to use to get a smiling razor sharp... Chris described how to work each section separately which is how I did it to start as well but after a while you can learn to do a rolling stroke that starts with the heel leading and gently transfer the honing pressure to the toe in one smooth scything arc on the hone. Blue or Yellow, either will do the job but it may take some time. You describe the razor as sharp enough to shave smoothly but not as sharp as you would like... might as well use the Coticule to slowly work your way to perfection. You'll get plenty of honing practice, learn more about smiling razors and how to sharpen them and ultimately learn how to get the most from those wonderful little pieces of rock we call Coticules. :mrgreen:

Well it's either that or you can join me in the gutter... all my money spent on amassing more and more hones, just to prove I had the right one from the start.......<sigh>. Be kind, the next time you walk past a fellow, down and out on his luck who goes "Psst.... buddy..... could you spare a dime for some shaving cream?"

Regards

Kaptain "Let he who is without dull edges, cast the first hone." Zero
very very helpful. thanks. I'm hearing more and more from people that really know to the effect that a DMT is just an unkind thing to expose my preciuses to, so I'll stick with my one DMT lapping stone for lapping and leave it at that.

But I gotta get me a blue though. just gotta. My preciuses needzzzzes one.

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Post by kaptain_zero » Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:04 pm

I just realized I failed to point out one other reason why I reach for the blue so often, and it's simply because it's a cheaper stone... why wear away at the Coticule when the blue, albeit a bit slower, does a very nice job of the grunt work and won't hurt as much to replace. I don't think I'll have to to replace it in my lifetime as I'm only using it for razors, but you never know..... I might live to 139! :P

You'd best watch that "gotta have one" illness. Should it flare up into a full blown case of HAD, you'll end up with the rest of us HAD sufferers on the Good Ship Titanic! :shock:

Regards

Kaptain "I remember laughing when they introduced "The Pet Rock"as a Christmas gift decades ago, but I'm not laughing anymore......" Zero
Previously lost, on the way to the pasture. Now pasteurized.

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Post by loueedacat1 » Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:00 am

kaptain_zero wrote:
Kaptain "I remember laughing when they introduced "The Pet Rock"as a Christmas gift decades ago, but I'm not laughing anymore......" Zero
Just remember to leave your NOS mood rings with your pet rocks so that you will know when they need to be lapped.

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Re: Trouble Honing a Fillarmonica 13 from classic shaving

Post by Leon » Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:04 pm

loueedacat1 wrote:
Anyone have any ideas what I might be doing wrong to get baby smooth, no tugging, but not close shaves from a fillarmonica with big smile?

Do you think the bevel isn't right or do I jiust need to keep working on my coticule technique since maybe the steel is jiust extra hard or something.
Some razors are harder (I mean more difficult) to hone than others. Also, there's a late batch of Filly's that had some flaws and are difficult to hone and to maintain a sharp edge.
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Post by loueedacat1 » Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:36 am

what's the flaw in the late batch? geometry of some sort?

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