Feather vs. Conventional Straight

[bernards66]

Les, Well, that's a little complicated to answer. All the barbershop shaves I've had, bar one, were done with those Shavette type disposible blade numbers. Some were actual Dovo Shavettes whilst others were different makes. Some used special blades for them like the Fromm or the Feather, others just took halfed DE blades. And, of course, the skill of the various barbers has varied widely as well. In the most qualified hands, they have provided very close shaves with only a wee bit of razor burn....and I doubt I could better on myself with a Shavette ( which I've never used ). With those other barbers, well, it varied from not so hot to a real butchery complete with blood. Only once was I shaved with a traditional straight. The barber was a genuine master of the kind that Bill used to get many years ago at Trumpers, and the shave was just superb and not a lick of irritation.

Now, diddling about at home, I was using real straights, not Shavettes, so the trip was entirely different. No razor burn or significent irritation, but at best a mediocre shave ( lack of experiance showing here ) but all that unpleasant pulling and tugging. One thing about straights, either old style ones or disposible blade models is that there is no razor guard of any kind and I think that the bar on my TTO DEs is an integral part of my shaving style and without it I just don't get as smooth a cut, even with the Feather AC where the blade is plainly as sharp as any DE.

With the Feather AC I got a better shave at home than the only one I ever got in a barber shop ( which was in Tampa, BTW ). The barber was using a heavier prep product than I use at home and only did one full pass whereas I do at least two. Well, I appreciate that he erred on the side of caution. I'd prefer a not so stellar close shave to a bad case of razor burn ( chuckle ).
Regards,
Gordon

[bernards66]

Ivan, I prefer DEs. I've used them for decades and get superb shaves with them if the blade is satisfactory. The Rolls really isn't a good comparison because there you have a heavier blade that is repeatedly honed and stropped much like a straight. It's just in a 'T' shaped handle. With a DE one is using a much thinner blade of very hard steel that has been industrially ground and honed to a sharpness that is not obtainable with a straight or a reusable blade style safety razor. With a top end DE blade, behind a razor bar, and held at the proper angle, the blade just glides along, slicing cleanly with no resistance at all....especially with or across the grain. It's just not possible to get that degree of sharpness/smoothness with a hand honed blade....nor, I might add, with a multi-blade set-up. Since I'm so used to this, even a degree of 'pull and tug' that wouldn't bother some...or even be particularly perceived by them, annoys me. I honestly believe that it's often easier for the multi-blade cartridge shaver to make the jump to straights than it is for the experianced DE shaver. There is more than one reason for this, I think, but one of them is that the multi-blade cartridge guy is at least used to a degree of 'pull' or resistance as he makes his strokes, whilst the long time DE shaver is not. My theory anyway.
Regards,
Gordon

[SiR-ed8]

Ivan, I prefer DEs. I've used them for decades and get superb shaves with them if the blade is satisfactory. The Rolls really isn't a good comparison because there you have a heavier blade that is repeatedly honed and stropped much like a straight. It's just in a 'T' shaped handle. With a DE one is using a much thinner blade of very hard steel that has been industrially ground and honed to a sharpness that is not obtainable with a straight or a reusable blade style safety razor. With a top end DE blade, behind a razor bar, and held at the proper angle, the blade just glides along, slicing cleanly with no resistance at all....especially with or across the grain. It's just not possible to get that degree of sharpness/smoothness with a hand honed blade....nor, I might add, with a multi-blade set-up. Since I'm so used to this, even a degree of 'pull and tug' that wouldn't bother some...or even be particularly perceived by them, annoys me. I honestly believe that it's often easier for the multi-blade cartridge shaver to make the jump to straights than it is for the experianced DE shaver. There is more than one reason for this, I think, but one of them is that the multi-blade cartridge guy is at least used to a degree of 'pull' or resistance as he makes his strokes, whilst the long time DE shaver is not. My theory anyway.
Regards,
Gordon

Gordon,

I'm glad you brought up the differences in grind. I was just talking bout this in another forum. The fact that it's such thin blade allows for smoother and closer shave. That's one of the things that immediately noticed upon using SR vs SE. The latter being wedge grind and thicker at bevel while it shaves nicely, I am left with a stubble ( for lack of better word ) that can only be felt if you run your fingers ATG on face. From visual standpoint the stubble is non-existent. One of my SRs is a wedge but bevel isn't as thick as it is on the Rolls.

Shavewise I no longer do ATG. It has nothing to do with skin irritation or razor burns. I'm satisfied with being 2-pass guy and once over.
With western SRs it yields 2 day baby skin smooth while Japanese counterpart 2.5 or so ( due to asymmetrical grind ) and SE is just well over 24hrs. Not to knock on the Rolls. I enjoy every bit of the process. It's different. If anything, it's allowing me to break in brushes quicker apart from me using 2 brushes simultaneously on a SOTD ( in past ).

Anyway have you tried doing short buffing strokes or even scything strokes?

These methods worked for me when I first started with SRs and when I subsequently ventured on to Japanese. Later on, I tried SE after my success with the former. Strangely enough while I still employ buffing strokes, unlike with SRs I actually do a longer stroke with SE on my sides as well as neck area. Everything else is buffing and scything stroke.

I'm sure if I did away with short buffing strokes and instead do longer strokes it'll be fine since I'm quite proficient. I simply don't do it because with short buffing strokes I can pull the blade away thus effectively spreading lather on focused shaving area. Some shavers may consider it a waste of time and prefer to do one long stroke. But to each his own.

Now I'm not guaranteeing the methods will work for you. Generally speaking, if you've poorly honed razor no matter how you go about it, it will either tug and pull, glide over the whisker or even be coarse if polishing or finishing stone isn't used.

Hope this helps. If you decide to try SRs again, please keep us abreast of how it goes.

[drmoss_ca]

It would almost be worse if you could/did succeed at this because than I would have tasted it but not be able to continue the experiance.
Regards,
Gordon

That's what keeps me at it! It's the Queen of Narnia's Turkish Delight.

Chris

[drmoss_ca]

What hones do you use? I use Nortons primarily for everything while Super Naniwas strictly for Japanese razors.

Lots! I find some razor respond better to one type rather than another. I haven't had as much luck with natural stones (with one or two exceptions) as with manmade waterstones and ceramics. So if I have to cut a bevel I use a DMT, then hone on a series of waterstones (Shapton, Norton or Naniwa) and then do the delicate stuff with a lapped ceramic. I'm not so good that I don't need pastes to achieve the edge I want so I then use them. Touch ups involve one of the two naturals I get on with, then the lapped ceramic and then pastes.

Chris

[bernards66]

Ivan, I certainly will, but it is unlikely. I gave the straights two seperate go-'rounds with maybe a two year gap inbetween. I played around with different blade angles, different length and type of strokes, and everything else I could think of. Always the 'pull and tug'. The bottom line was; since I get superb shaves every day with a DE my willingness to continue to experiment with the straights was limited. I could have pushed through the stage of just so-so shaves, knowing that that would improve with further practice, but because of the 'pull and tug' effect, the overall experiance was unpleasant and my patience limited. Another of our members, 'Ian', had a similiar experiance. It was unfortunate in a way, but I'm entirely happy with the implements that I've used for years.
Regards,
Gordon

[JohnP]

Just thought I'd chip in again, straight razors are a very individual thing and it's hard to explain. I've had 2 razors which were nearly identical and one would shave with almost no effort and the other felt like it was pulling the whole time. I'm sure part of it could have been my skill level too, but I don't know if that's it.
It's easy to say you don't like straights when you've tried a few from respected members who are judged good with their hones, but also consider that is like saying you don't like DE's when you've only tried blades from one manufacturer. Add to this the fact that there is much more variation in blade geometry, as well as angle of the edge to bevel that it is just difficult to call.
I've had 2 new Dovos which were great shavers right out of the box, and then had another that was terrible. Likewise I've had razors from members which shaved well, and a few that did not. All were very sharp (I used to be in the habit of looking at edges through a microscope) but razors honed by hand show the individual habits of the man behind the hone, as well.
Before I learned how to use a straight (and later DE's even though as a child I used to get scolded for messing with my grandfather's Gillete adjustable) I could never use Schick cartridges (Tracer for instance) and I believe it was purely for similar reasons. Hundreds of millions of men have, however, used them with no problems.
I'm rambling
Straights are a very personal thing. I believe they will shave just as well as any DE on the planet, and given the right attention from the right person, will be IMHO just as sharp as one as well.
If you felt the wedge blade wasn't for you, look into some singing/full concave grind razors. Their blades are paper thin and the feel is very similar to a DE blade. They work quite well, although I tend to prefer a bit thicker blade personally.

John P

[notthesharpest]

There is also the fact that when it comes to razors all of us weight our preferences in favour of whatever we have become used to.

There was a member on one of the shaving boards (I forget which one) who got spectacular shaves time after time from his special amazing straight razor without doing any maintenance on it. Everyone (except him ) concluded that he had simply come to prefer his razor rough, ragged, and dull, somewhat like a saw blade, and had built his technique around that [with relative success].

[bernards66]

David, Whoa!...that's a rather extreme story but it does make the point. Our preferences and priorities are, I agree, highly conditioned by what we are used to. One sees this all the time in the areas of, large vs. small brush, or short vs. long handle on a DE. I think there were/are several factors as to why I experianced the straights the way that I did. In the first place, thin industrially made blades of extremely hard steel are sharper than it's possible to hand hone a straight blade. Almost all straight shavers agree that the Feather AC is...what's that word they use that translates as 'sharper' or 'too sharp'? They often apply it to DEs as well. But beyond that there is the matter of the coatings. I started shaving with the first generation of stainless DE blades and only a very few years after that they started to get into all these sophisticated alloys and coatings which made the blades considerably smoother than they had been. Then there is the razor guard issue and the fact that with a straight, generally, more edge is in contact with the whiskers at one time. Add all this together and for me it equaled too much pull and tug. While I'm willing to concede that there might be a razor(s) out there that would not effect me this way, I doubt that my odds are that good of finding it. If I ever found a traditional straight that cut as relatively smoothly as the Feather AC, but without the long term skin damage, I might re-evaluate my whole routine. But I'm happy enough with the way things are.
Regards,
Gordon

[notthesharpest]

David, Whoa!...that's a rather extreme story but it does make the point. Our preferences and priorities are, I agree, highly conditioned by what we are used to. One sees this all the time in the areas of, large vs. small brush, or short vs. long handle on a DE. I think there were/are several factors as to why I experianced the straights the way that I did. In the first place, thin industrially made blades of extremely hard steel are sharper than it's possible to hand hone a straight blade. Almost all straight shavers agree that the Feather AC is...what's that word they use that translates as 'sharper' or 'too sharp'? They often apply it to DEs as well. But beyond that there is the matter of the coatings. I started shaving with the first generation of stainless DE blades and only a very few years after that they started to get into all these sophisticated alloys and coatings which made the blades considerably smoother than they had been. Then there is the razor guard issue and the fact that with a straight, generally, more edge is in contact with the whiskers at one time. Add all this together and for me it equaled too much pull and tug. While I'm willing to concede that there might be a razor(s) out there that would not effect me this way, I doubt that my odds are that good of finding it. If I ever found a traditional straight that cut as relatively smoothly as the Feather AC, but without the long term skin damage, I might re-evaluate my whole routine. But I'm happy enough with the way things are.

Personally I think the smooth cutting comes from the excessive sharpness.

[SiR-ed8]

JohnP

I had 2 Dovos of different models and they shaved nearly identical. They were full hollow ground 5/8 roundpoint.

Ivan, I certainly will, but it is unlikely. I gave the straights two seperate go-'rounds with maybe a two year gap inbetween. I played around with different blade angles, different length and type of strokes, and everything else I could think of. Always the 'pull and tug'. The bottom line was; since I get superb shaves every day with a DE my willingness to continue to experiment with the straights was limited. I could have pushed through the stage of just so-so shaves, knowing that that would improve with further practice, but because of the 'pull and tug' effect, the overall experiance was unpleasant and my patience limited. Another of our members, 'Ian', had a similiar experiance. It was unfortunate in a way, but I'm entirely happy with the implements that I've used for years.
Regards,
Gordon

Gordon,

You honestly have me stumped my friend. Barring honing skills of honemeisters, your prep, shave angles, there really isn't anything else I can think of that would produce tug and pull effect. Unless of course you rolled the edge when you strop it before shaving but even if that were to happen, you would in turn dull the edge. Another thing comes to mind is you would have to roll the entire edge on the strop. In most cases new SR shavers roll the toe or heel at least that's what I saw in other forums.
But I consider you to be apt shaver hence there's no doubt bout your prep and what not.

I don't know what angles you took but generally for WTG one should employ 30 degree or less, XTG 15 degree and ATG 5 degree. I'm no mathematician so I don't know how accurate my angles are. I've gotten accustomed to SR shaving within 2 weeks from when I first started. That said, I'm just doing what works for me.

I'm sure in all of those shaving videos out there. Of the 3 I've seen the shaver in each one has different method of attack on the beard growth.
Mine is based on A.B. Moler's 14 steps of shaving.

As far as Feather is concerned, it's been argued in another forum that there really isn't such a thing as "too sharp." I don't recall all details because I no longer frequent it. But for me I just refer to razor as coarse if it's not smooth when it glides over skin ( not to be misconstrued with tug-n-pull effect). Also there's arguments asserting that there isn't such a thing as overhoning which i found to be illogical. But that's an entirely different case.

Again, I'm not trying to get you back into straights you just piqued my interest because I've never seen this happen to anyone.

You know you just reminded me of something. When I tried to shave my brother with Japanese straight it didn't go as well as I'd hoped. Second time around was better. However the post-shave wasn't similar to mine in that his would be similar to a shave I would get with a Rolls ( stubble is felt when you run your finger ATG ).

I reckon due to my inexperience it would have to be the pressure applied or lack thereof. I say this because I dry shave test the razor myself after honing. Since that time he didn't strop or do anything to it. Further it wasn't lack of prep either because he had ample lather. Like with honing or stropping, shaving is the same in a sense that you should allow the weight of blade to do all the work. If pressure is needed then a little pressure is fine but not too much.

[bernards66]

Ivan, Well, I tried various blade angles, as you say, different shavers have different modes of attack and I'd noticed that as well on several of the straight shave videos that I checked out. I had my best luck with the blade almost flat against my skin, but not quite. I considered the possibility that I might have rolled the edge through inept stopping, so the last set of straights I borrowed were presented as ready to go and I didn't try to strop them. I just tried them one after the other, five or six of them. No go. But again, I suspect that I'm very sensitive to that 'pull tug' sensation, and possibly, with enough time, I could have simply gotten used to it but the motivation wasn't there to try and give it that much time. Then too, I figured it would probably take me several months at least to approximate the shave I can get easily with my DE...and I might have never quite gotten there...who knows? I'm glad I gave it a second try, and grateful to the member who made that effortlessly possible, but I'm pretty content with accepting today that straights are just not my cup of tea. And as I mentioned, I'm not entirely the only one. Ian had similiar experiances and reluctantly reached the same conclusion that I did. Others have acknowledged that their straights do pull and tug some but say that it doesn't bother them. Different strokes for different folks and all that I suppose.
Regards,
Gordon

[rustyblade]

I've got to hang my strop back up, this thread has given me back the itch. It has been three months now and damn it I miss the pull and tug against the grain.

[ichabod]

I have two quick comments. The first is that Moss sharp is an amazing edge. Probably the closest I've some with any tool to doing a single WTG pass and being satisfied.

The second is an observation from a relative newcomer to the world of straight razors and shaving - the skills of honing, stropping and shaving will ideally build alongside each other, and stropping is probably the most ignored skill of the three, because it's probably the quickest to learn.

I have one hone, a yellow coticule, and one razor I use whenever I shave with a straight (a W&B barber's use monster). Each time I hone the razor my touch improves, and each time I shave my touch improves. While I don't ever see myself becoming a honemeister or restoring blades etc., I may eventually be able to get a blade with a Moss edge and keep it that way, but really my shaving technique is probably not ready for that yet, so by maintaining my own blade I set my own standards. That, for me, is the essence of the lifelong experience of straight razor shaving.

[ichabod]

I've got to hang my strop back up, this thread has given me back the itch. It has been three months now and damn it I miss the pull and tug against the grain.

This thread gave me the impetus to scratch an itch as well - this morning I shaved my head with my straight instead of the (gasp!) Fusion. I've never liked using more than one razor for a shave, but I've been leery of taking the chopper to my head. I don't know why I was so hesitant - one with-the-grain pass (my days of jumping in with both feet and pushing my luck are behind me, as coincidentally are my days of irritation. . .) was pretty quick, easy and trouble free. Not as close as two passes with the Fusion, but why would it be?

[rustyblade]

This thread gave me the impetus to scratch an itch as well - this morning I shaved my head with my straight instead of the (gasp!) Fusion. I've never liked using more than one razor for a shave, but I've been leery of taking the chopper to my head. I don't know why I was so hesitant - one with-the-grain pass (my days of jumping in with both feet and pushing my luck are behind me, as coincidentally are my days of irritation. . .) was pretty quick, easy and trouble free. Not as close as two passes with the Fusion, but why would it be?

Well, that's just it. DE shaving is simple and gives superior results, there are parts on my face that just won't be as smooth when shaving with a straight. A shave I might add that 95% of the general population would be very happy with. But the straight shaving ritual can't be beat.

I dropped my W&B chopper a while back and took a small nick out of the blade. I haven't had the time to hone it out.

[ferroburak]

Good for those who cannot invest in strop, hones.