Escher and Thuringian

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brothers
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Escher and Thuringian

Post by brothers » Thu Oct 28, 2010 6:41 pm

Would a Thuringian be almost as good a finishing hone as an Escher? Second question: Is there a man-made hone that is as good or almost as good as these natural stones?
Last edited by brothers on Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Gary

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Post by loueedacat1 » Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:57 pm

yes. :D

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matt321
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Post by matt321 » Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:13 pm

Based on what Eschers go for these days, I'm afraid I will never know. :shock:

I hold to the theory that there are less expensive ways to get a good shave.

brothers
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Post by brothers » Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:17 pm

Now you know why I asked the second question!!
Gary

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Post by loueedacat1 » Fri Oct 29, 2010 5:09 am

I think your shaptons are the man made hone that is as good.

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Post by brothers » Fri Oct 29, 2010 5:13 am

That's my impression. I've got the tools, I've just got to learn how to use them effectively. I'm not getting on the hone merry go round. It's a challenge that intrigues me.
Gary

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Post by GollyMrScience » Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:28 am

I do not own a natural stone anymore- I use nortons and pastes and do just fine.
I have owned a Thuringen but gifted it as I always figured I would get another if I really wanted one.
For the most part I would want one just to connect with the experience of honing on natural stone and while various people might get what they consider better results I have not personnally experienced it. Of course it could be that I just have not tried enough natural stone hones or perhaps now that my technique is better I would get more out of one.
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Post by Life2short1971 » Thu Nov 11, 2010 11:29 pm

I have Escher,Thuri,Coticule,Charnley Forest,Blah bla bla and the edges produced are not much better than a naniwa ss12k or a Chosera 10k. I'm sure the Shaptons are capable of wonderful edges when you learn them. Make sure you have some crox on some sort of strop as the edge may be a little too sharp and harsh which you can tone down with the crox.
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Post by Harvitz81 » Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:43 pm

I have an escher and a vintage thuri and they both produce great edges and are very similar.

In fact, an "escher" is just a named brand thuri stone, so one would expect them to behave similarly.

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Post by drmoss_ca » Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:20 pm

Owning far more hones than is good for me, or anyone else, I can say that the adage about skinning cats applies. In spades. Lots of razors, honed in different ways will shave superbly, once you have the technique.

I'm coming round (a little reluctantly as we hate to let go of our shibboleths) to the view that about four hones (possibly one pair as a combo), can make an edge that will give a wonderful shave and good skin appearance. OK, I'd prefer two much coarser hones for the butterknife eBay specials I prefer to avoid these days. It's taken me a long time, but I'm self-taught, to realise that you can shave against the grain with hones alone.

Chris
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Post by Tim Zowada » Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:29 pm

Jeez Chris, I had to Google shibboleth to find out what it means. Thanks for the language lesson!

In answer to the original question, a Thuringen would make as good a finisher as an Escher. That is, if it is of similar quality. Some of the Thuringens are pretty coarse as to the grain size and often have small fissures and inclusions in them. In general, the Eschers seem to be very consistent and high quality. Yet, both work quite well.

The most important thing with either hone is to use it purely as a "finisher". Don't try to move any metal with it. it's only purpose is to remove 8,000 or 10,000 grit scratches.

Chris, I am also finding that I use four hones for nearly everything. Like you, I have them all... But, these days, most of them just sit on the shelf to remind me of all the money I've spend on abrasive rocks.

Tim Z.

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Post by drmoss_ca » Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:45 pm

Sad, ain't it? But then again, I've spent far more on custom razors! :wink:

Chris
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Post by Gssixgun » Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:19 am

For the Minimalists :)

There are some "New" techniques that Lynn and I worked on from different ends of the country with the same conclusion...

Basically any stone that you can use with slurry and you can shave off of can be used with the "One Stone Hone System"

I do not recommend using the system for bevel sets, you can, but it's your time hehehe

I used a King 1k for the razors that needed bevel help to keep my testing as accessible as possible...

Between Lynn and myself we tested 100's of razors doing this, and all of the common Naturals...

If you hit Youtube and search gssixgun you will find some vids called "One Stone Hone" in that vid I am using a vintage Thuringen and slurry...

There is a large thread on SRP about it, but I don't know the rules here about linking other fora so I won't...


To the OP this is how it was always explained to me and so I always explain it this way too...

"All Eschers are Thuringens, not all Thuringens are Eschers"...

The Eschers were the cream of the crop, selected for razors and instraments...
There are Thuringens that are every bit as good a finisher, but there are others that are not up to the task for razors, and are more suited to knives and tools...
Always Very Respectfully

Glen

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Post by drmoss_ca » Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:20 am

Glen,
We won't get upset if you link elsewhere.

I have a bunch of natural stones, but can never make any of them fit reliably and consistently into a honing recipe. In other words, I generally use the known grit progressions of Nortons, Shaptons or Naniwas. When that fails to work on some unusual razor, I try my naturals (or my barber hones, and I especially believe in the Pyke American Swaty, which works better than my real Swatys, be they two or three line). They all come around in the end. I like the idea of natural stones, and have Belgian Blue, several coticules, Thuringens, Eschers, Chinese 12k and so on. All of the latter are slates as far as I can see, but I haven't researched the geology. I have resisted the temptation to get into Japanese naturals, and I'll thank you all not to try to lead me that way!

Ah, I've just realised an exception to the above. I have a Norton translucent Arkansas, lapped with 2k grit, that almost always makes the nicest transition between the working hones and the finishing hone. I always had the opinion that Arkansas stones were for knives and not for razors until Tim showed me the magic of this stone. I must try to remember to dig the old Col. Conk Arkansas stone on a wooden paddle out of the basement and lap it and see if this is something that will extend to other Arkansas stones. Sadly, I understand the current production of the translucent Arkansas by Norton is about 100 stones per year, so it's not going to be a mainstream option.

Chris
"Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothèse."
Pierre-Simon de Laplace

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Post by EL Alamein » Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:57 pm

drmoss_ca wrote:Glen,
We won't get upset if you link elsewhere.

I have a bunch of natural stones, but can never make any of them fit reliably and consistently into a honing recipe. In other words, I generally use the known grit progressions of Nortons, Shaptons or Naniwas. When that fails to work on some unusual razor, I try my naturals (or my barber hones, and I especially believe in the Pyke American Swaty, which works better than my real Swatys, be they two or three line). They all come around in the end. I like the idea of natural stones, and have Belgian Blue, several coticules, Thuringens, Eschers, Chinese 12k and so on. All of the latter are slates as far as I can see, but I haven't researched the geology. I have resisted the temptation to get into Japanese naturals, and I'll thank you all not to try to lead me that way!

Ah, I've just realised an exception to the above. I have a Norton translucent Arkansas, lapped with 2k grit, that almost always makes the nicest transition between the working hones and the finishing hone. I always had the opinion that Arkansas stones were for knives and not for razors until Tim showed me the magic of this stone. I must try to remember to dig the old Col. Conk Arkansas stone on a wooden paddle out of the basement and lap it and see if this is something that will extend to other Arkansas stones. Sadly, I understand the current production of the translucent Arkansas by Norton is about 100 stones per year, so it's not going to be a mainstream option.

Chris
Dr. Moss, please let me know how you make out with the Conk hone. I'd be interested to see if you can make it do anything. Years ago I concluded that it was worthless as a razor hone and one might as well hone their razor on the cement sidewalk. But you never know.

Chris

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Post by drmoss_ca » Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:35 pm

That was exactly what I thought about it, but if I find it and lap it I'll let you know....

Chris
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Post by SliceOfLife » Thu May 12, 2011 6:38 pm

Thuringians weren't to my knowledge marketed for knife or rough tool sharpening. I've owned over 50 vintage thuringians. VERY few had awl/fishhook scars (ALWAYS on the sides). None had chisel scars. Of the ~2 dozen with labels, their uses were...


2 for fine detail wood carving sets (Actually came in the sets)
2 for surgical tools
The rest were all labeled for razors

It would seem that thuringians didn't get low enough in grit that it made sense to market them for larger knives and tools. Eschers "grading" system is speculative at best. They vary just as widely as my non-eschers (AHC, Estima, Celebrated (possibly Escher trademark), etc). In the end, given the number of remaining Escher labels to other brands, it's quite probable that the majority of unmarked Thuri's are just Eschers whose labels are gone (how the labels on any Eschers that saw regular use survived at all is beyond me). I'm of the opinion that virtually all 7x1.5x0.75 cut Thuris are Eschers that lost their labels. I've never seen any other brand use that cut and it is by FAR the most common Escher cut. So I definitely wouldn't pay a premium for that cut with labels, unless buying to resell (I've sold a dozen or more 7x1.5 stones and maybe half were labeled Eschers), without the labels I would never be able to identify which group a random stone belonged to.

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Post by EL Alamein » Thu May 12, 2011 7:25 pm

drmoss_ca wrote:That was exactly what I thought about it, but if I find it and lap it I'll let you know....

Chris
Send me your Chroniks and I'll hone them on it. The stone will probably turn into gold!
I just saw this. LMAO!! I just had to run into the other room and grab the Chronik and touch it to my Conk hone. Nada. Like, nothin'. Definitely out of pixie dust or perhaps it's dormant while all slathered with a thick layer of Vaseline. The Conk stone does do a decent job of lapping a Norton 8k though.

Chris

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