Arkansas hard black stone question

[brothers]

I'm considering getting one of these hones. What is the general consensus regarding these? What should I expect, and how/where would this particular stone fit in a normal progression? Am I correct that these are used with water, as with the others?

[EL Alamein]

Gary,

I would be careful as there are different grades of these out there. Some I think are suited to razors and some not. I have one I bought 18 years or so ago. I quickly realized it was not suited to razors though it was being sold as such by the store I bought it from. It was black but not translucent.

I don't know much more about these so just wanted to offer this cautionary tale.

Hope that helps.

Chris

[Squire]

I'm with Chris and wouldn't buy an Arkansas stone unless I could examine it first. They've been around a long time though, it's just the definition is so loose even a reputable dealer could be selling something we couldn't use.

[drmoss_ca]

Norton makes a Hard Translucent Arkansas Ultra Fine stone, and you can use it on razors. Mine came from Tim Z. and he had lapped it on one side with a 2k diamond plate and and it feels like glass. It's surprisingly good, and one of the oddities I pull out when things aren't going as planned with the usual hones. The unlapped side is quite coarse, but could probably be used for bevels.

Chris

[EL Alamein]

Norton makes a Hard Translucent Arkansas Ultra Fine stone, and you can use it on razors. Mine came from Tim Z. and he had lapped it on one side with a 2k diamond plate and and it feels like glass. It's surprisingly good, and one of the oddities I pull out when things aren't going as planned with the usual hones. The unlapped side is quite coarse, but could probably be used for bevels.

Chris

I am intrigued. I got a translucent slip stone recently and am waiting for the right opportunity to try it.

Chris

[drmoss_ca]

It was an interesting story, and probably any NDA has expired now. Tim sent me his Norton Arkansas and a prototype of a new Norton ceramic finishing hone. It was to like a Spyderco UF, but with a different 'bond and grain'. He explained that as has been said of the Spyderco, the ceramic hone's qualities would depend not so much on particle size but on the texture of the lapped surface. He felt the same applied to the very hard arkansas stone. Using them was rather exciting, as the intention was for me to try them on a variety of razors and even ones that had been difficult. Both stones were impressive quick cutters, and the ceramic gave wicked edges. This sounds a bit like the infamous Chronik, but I honed a Livi blue tongue and used it daily for a whole year with only occasional paste stroppings - but stainless damascus is a strange beast at the best of times. I had to send the ceramic prototype back, but I bought the arkansas from Tim. Unfortunately, the engineer who was in charge of that project at Norton left the company, and the plan to sell a complete honing kit fell by the wayside. The arkansas stone would not likely have been part of it, as the annual production of those stones was only about 100/year.
When I realised I would not be able to buy one of these ceramic wonders I bought a 3" wide Spyderco UF and lapped it with diamond paper. It's good, but not as good as the Norton was. I should probably do it again with something slightly coarser, as it cuts too slowly and takes forever (unlike the unlapped side, which is quite quick but not so fine). Someone, somewhere probably knows a lot about the use of ultra-hard hones and stones that depend on lapping/texturing for their cutting qualities, but it's not me. It does seem that the honing quality isn't as closely linked to the grit size of the lapping plate as you might think. The ceramic was lapped with 0.65microns and the arkansas with 2k grit (~12microns), but both ended up as quick cutting but fine hones. I would guess the arkansas works like an 8k hone and the ceramic was more like a 12k. I haven't tried the unlapped side of the arkansas, but it feels like sandpaper and might just chip edges even if just used for bevels. Another thing to try out, one day!

Chris

[drmoss_ca]

Just for fun I went to the shelves of hones and stones in the basement and found the UF and the arkansas, and re-lapped the UF with a Shapton DGLP and then a DMT 1200 (a surprising amount of fine grey dust was quickly made). I then dug out that Livi and touched it up on the arkansas and then the UF. I'll use it tomorrow and tell you if it still works the way it did in the past. Always looking for the magic stone, aren't we?

Chris

[EL Alamein]

Just for fun I went to the shelves of hones and stones in the basement and found the UF and the arkansas, and re-lapped the UF with a Shapton DGLP and then a DMT 1200 (a surprising amount of fine grey dust was quickly made). I then dug out that Livi and touched it up on the arkansas and then the UF. I'll use it tomorrow and tell you if it still works the way it did in the past. Always looking for the magic stone, aren't we?

Chris

Dr. Moss, Indeed we are!

Fun trip ain't it? I look at it this way, we're making it easier for the next generation . . . maybe.

Chris

[EL Alamein]

It was an interesting story, and probably any NDA has expired now. Tim sent me his Norton Arkansas and a prototype of a new Norton ceramic finishing hone. It was to like a Spyderco UF, but with a different 'bond and grain'. He explained that as has been said of the Spyderco, the ceramic hone's qualities would depend not so much on particle size but on the texture of the lapped surface. He felt the same applied to the very hard arkansas stone. Using them was rather exciting, as the intention was for me to try them on a variety of razors and even ones that had been difficult. Both stones were impressive quick cutters, and the ceramic gave wicked edges. This sounds a bit like the infamous Chronik, but I honed a Livi blue tongue and used it daily for a whole year with only occasional paste stroppings - but stainless damascus is a strange beast at the best of times. I had to send the ceramic prototype back, but I bought the arkansas from Tim. Unfortunately, the engineer who was in charge of that project at Norton left the company, and the plan to sell a complete honing kit fell by the wayside. The arkansas stone would not likely have been part of it, as the annual production of those stones was only about 100/year.
When I realised I would not be able to buy one of these ceramic wonders I bought a 3" wide Spyderco UF and lapped it with diamond paper. It's good, but not as good as the Norton was. I should probably do it again with something slightly coarser, as it cuts too slowly and takes forever (unlike the unlapped side, which is quite quick but not so fine). Someone, somewhere probably knows a lot about the use of ultra-hard hones and stones that depend on lapping/texturing for their cutting qualities, but it's not me. It does seem that the honing quality isn't as closely linked to the grit size of the lapping plate as you might think. The ceramic was lapped with 0.65microns and the arkansas with 2k grit (~12microns), but both ended up as quick cutting but fine hones. I would guess the arkansas works like an 8k hone and the ceramic was more like a 12k. I haven't tried the unlapped side of the arkansas, but it feels like sandpaper and might just chip edges even if just used for bevels. Another thing to try out, one day!

Chris

Wow, this is fascinating, thanks for this wonderful recount, I thoroughly enjoyed it. It slightly reminds me of the tales of the old barber hones and their "dual" sides - coarse and fine - based on how the stone was lapped on each side though it was really just an homogenous stone. I can accept and believe that Norton has perfected such technology in the modern age. It's a shame they aren't marketing it as I'd buy one (as would most other straight razor shavers, I'd suspect).

There was a thread on another forum regarding something of this same effect with a translucent Arkansas hone. It piqued my interest and jogged my memory (and we all know how reliable that is, lately). I do remember that old hone I used back in the day to be slow as can be - spending the better half of a Sunday afternoon honing my blade so I'd look decent for the workday coming. The one consolation in trading my Sunday afternoon was that the edge was most likely to last six months.

Oh what a memory though as most of my bachelor Sunday mornings were filled with getting her out of the apartment, hot black coffee, scrambled eggs with bacon, and Philadelphia Butter Cake. Hangover be gone!

Looking forward to your field reports.

Chris

[drmoss_ca]

The Livi responded very nicely—just a little rough the way a new edge often is until it has been used and stropped a few times. Just for fun I took a Friodur and honed it just the same way so I can judge how well it responds before using these two stones on my usual daily Friodur.

Chris

[EL Alamein]

The Livi responded very nicely—just a little rough the way a new edge often is until it has been used and stropped a few times. Just for fun I took a Friodur and honed it just the same way so I can judge how well it responds before using these two stones on my usual daily Friodur.

Chris

Fantastic! Now I'm anxious to try this. Looking forward to how this performs over time.

Chris

[drmoss_ca]

Well I've explored a bit further, and finally been brave enough to hone my one true daily shaver under a new regime. It's no secret that I have a lot of Friodurs, but all are from the batch of 'newly discovered blanks' that a certain vendor sold at one time. Either they were rejects for good reasons, or the person who ground them wasn't the most skillful. Many are un-honeable because of blade deformity, and others don't reach their full potential with similar but less-marked defects. A quick look with a handheld microscope tells it all. I should add that the vendor was completely fair and above-board when I complained, offering replacements and all. But out of the 11 I still have, one has nearly perfect geometry and is my daily shaver. I like the fact it is stainless, heavy, and 7/8. Once it gets an edge it keeps it for ages. Experiments on the set of seven that preceded the nomination of this paragon have shown me that the lapped arkansas stone works pretty well on them, but that the lapped Spyderco UF adds little if anything. Possibly it cuts slowly and more patience and persistence might do it, but I doubt it. The scratch pattern doesn't really look finer after the UF than it did after the arkansas. So I decided to do something odd - use the lapped arkansas and then the Suehiro Gokumyo 20k as a finisher. I don't know what the effective grit of the lapped arkansas is (TZ estimated it as 8k), but my microscope tells me it leaves fine scratches, and the 20k polishes them away such that the whole bevel is like a mirror with no visible scratches. So that's what I did today, using a single layer of tape, although it probably serves no purpose other than making the process a bit quieter. I used 15 there-and-back strokes (or 30 single strokes) on the arkansas, followed by 45 there-and-backs on the 20k. I stropped on plain red russian leather afterwards and had a truly delightful shave. I can't say it was better than the same blade honed on a sequence of Shaptons or Naniwas and finished on the 20k, but to do it with just two hones is easier.

Chris

[EL Alamein]

Dr. Moss, this is a wonderful report! Thanks so much for sharing your findings.

It is indeed exciting to think that perhaps two hones can do it all (or if we're thinking of the old days, perhaps one hone). I also shaved today with my Arkansas honed blade and the short of it is it was excellent and smooth.

I have an old Friodur that I bought from Lynn Abrams about 10 years ago. It hasn't seen action in years but you have inspired me to take it up again. I'll rehone it with the Arkansas and report back. It may take a while though as I'd like to see how long this current edge lasts.

Looking forward to any other experiments you may try and for updates on your blade performance and longevity.

Chris

[Oscar11]

I can't comment on the arkie but I've used the Spyderco UF as a finisher for quite some time and have enjoyed shaving off the edges.