Gokumyo 20k

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Southbound
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Gokumyo 20k

Post by Southbound »

Hi,
I am curious about the Gokumyo 20k. I have heard mixed reviews about it, but that's normal for anything. Some say it doesn't offer very much more refinement that a Naniwa 12k - if it doesn't offer that much more refinement I sure can't justify paying 350.00 for the Gok/20k.That's what I finish at a 12k Naniwa. That doesn't make sense to me, but it may be true?? The Suehiro Gokumyo offer also a 10k, and a 15k. I just figured or surmised that a Gokumyo 10k would be about as fine as a Naniwa 12k, and the Gok/15k would be finer than the Naniwa 12k?
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drmoss_ca
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Re: Gokumyo 20k

Post by drmoss_ca »

I'd say it is a far better finisher than any 12k stone. I don't regret buying mine at all.

C.
"Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothèse."
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Brutus
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Re: Gokumyo 20k

Post by Brutus »

I use the Gokumyo 20k after the Naniwa 12k and am glad I have it.
The stone feels different to my range of Naniwas, but it does an exceptional job.

When the Gokumyo arrived silly me experimented whether I could reduce or even eliminate the CrOx stropping afterwards, but since I have started to go the other way and take the razor afterwards to a diamond paste treated strop followed by a Crox treated one and then the usual stropping routine getting this way closer and smoother shaves than ever before.


B
Last edited by Brutus on Thu May 30, 2019 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.

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Re: Gokumyo 20k

Post by Southbound »

drmoss_ca wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 3:53 pm I'd say it is a far better finisher than any 12k stone. I don't regret buying mine at all.

C.
I do like the Japanese natural stones, but I don't know if I want to go down that deep rabbit hole yet. Have any of you experienced micro-chipping with the naniwa 12k? I haven't. Sham over at razor and stone told me that a this 12k causes microchips. He said these were not made for razors but for knives. I have not had any microchips and I do 35 laps. He suggested that I don't use a high enough magnification. IMO a quality belomo 10x loupe is all I need when honing. At a high enough magnification - lets say 100× a baby's smooth skin will look like a washed out and rutted gravel road. High magnification would drive me crazy while honing. Before I decide to buy, the next time my razor needs honing I may send it out for a Gok/20k edge to be put on. Here is a thread that talks about the 20k not offering much more than the 12k.
https://sharprazorpalace.com/hones/1406 ... paste.html
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drmoss_ca
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Re: Gokumyo 20k

Post by drmoss_ca »

Judge your razor and stone by the shave, not by what a self-proclaimed expert on a forum tells you he has discovered, and I include myself (no 'expert' really) in that warning, but no one can argue with the test of a hone is a close and comfy shave, can they?
Funny how straights got honed and used for such a long time, but then when the nerds were let in on the fun they invent microchipping. I rarely use my microscopes on razors, mostly if honing out damage. In routine honing I know some razors 'prefer' some hones, and I follow their preferences, but I don't know that I believe in microchipping. All edges will be ragged at a high enough magnification. Ragged edges at lower magnifications are more often signs of poor technique rather than the toxic effects of unpopular stones.

My only experience of JNat stones is through Tim Zowada's newest razors. Best shaves I ever had. But I can't afford those stones these days.
"Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothèse."
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Southbound
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Re: Gokumyo 20k

Post by Southbound »

drmoss_ca wrote: Thu May 30, 2019 3:50 am Judge your razor and stone by the shave, not by what a self-proclaimed expert on a forum tells you he has discovered, and I include myself (no 'expert' really) in that warning, but no one can argue with the test of a hone is a close and comfy shave, can they?
Funny how straights got honed and used for such a long time, but then when the nerds were let in on the fun they invent microchipping. I rarely use my microscopes on razors, mostly if honing out damage. In routine honing I know some razors 'prefer' some hones, and I follow their preferences, but I don't know that I believe in microchipping. All edges will be ragged at a high enough magnification. Ragged edges at lower magnifications are more often signs of poor technique rather than the toxic effects of unpopular stones.

My only experience of JNat stones is through Tim Zowada's newest razors. Best shaves I ever had. But I can't afford those stones these days.
I agree 100% with everything you just said. I haven't experienced any micro chipping - I have experienced overhoning, but everyone does at some point. Im not even a intermediate honer yet. Those Jnat stones in practiced hands produce great edges. Sharp and smooth, and that's usually not the case with finishing stone they are normally one or the other not both. The other thing is that these jnat edges are more durable.(going by what I have read up on them) Finishing on a light slurry thinner than( skim milk) I don't know if this is a word or not - but it nano-convexes the very apex, and making a more durable edge. You can synthetic up to 8k then finish on a Jnat.
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Re: Gokumyo 20k

Post by EL Alamein »

Personally, I never use mine anymore. The reason is due to rounding of the edge from stropping.

I may be mis-remembering but I think all edges wind up rounded to a degree from stropping etc. I seem to recall this from the Science of Sharp blog but I may be wrong.

My thoughts are if the blade winds up rounding then why not just take it to the pasted strop and just finish that way? It's worked a treat for me so I'm sticking with it.

Chris
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Re: Gokumyo 20k

Post by drmoss_ca »

Yeah, pastes get a bad rap from the nerds too. Honing on a single coticule, or just a Norton 4k/8k is a party trick, not a way for ordinary shavers to get their razors into a reliably usable state. I don't hesitate to use pastes if I find an edge better with them.

My usual finisher these days is a little Escher (I hate to tell you it is better than the 20k) and even then pastes can make the edge better. Just don't overdo them, or all you have is the paste edge, not the one from the stone. Now I think of it, you could bypass the Gokumyo, use the Naniwa 12k and then a green chrome strop and have a similar result, as long as you limit the paste strop to 5-10 passes. You can do more - a lot more - without ruining the edge, but you will have a rounded edge typical of pastes (and that's OK if you like them, or have a razor you can't make shave any other way). If you want to feel the hone's edge, just a little polish with the chrome will do no harm and refine the shave without altering the essential character of the edge.
"Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothèse."
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Re: Gokumyo 20k

Post by Southbound »

drmoss_ca wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 3:39 am Yeah, pastes get a bad rap from the nerds too. Honing on a single coticule, or just a Norton 4k/8k is a party trick, not a way for ordinary shavers to get their razors into a reliably usable state. I don't hesitate to use pastes if I find an edge better with them.

My usual finisher these days is a little Escher (I hate to tell you it is better than the 20k) and even then pastes can make the edge better. Just don't overdo them, or all you have is the paste edge, not the one from the stone. Now I think of it, you could bypass the Gokumyo, use the Naniwa 12k and then a green chrome strop and have a similar result, as long as you limit the paste strop to 5-10 passes. You can do more - a lot more - without ruining the edge, but you will have a rounded edge typical of pastes (and that's OK if you like them, or have a razor you can't make shave any other way). If you want to feel the hone's edge, just a little polish with the chrome will do no harm and refine the shave without altering the essential character of the edge.
Yes I agree. Those nerds that make everything scientific - man its just rubbing steel on a rock. Yes I do consider it an art - but its not to be as complex as they make it sound. Its no dark secret art. I do admit I have lots to learn, but I enjoy the small progress I have made so far .They claim that using paste is cheating somehow. How is it cheating?? You are just further refining the edge with a really fine abrasive. I actually started out using crox after my Naniwa 12k on a paddle with hard rock felt - there is just enough give in the material to slightly convex the blade and making it a more comfy, stronger and longer lasting edge. I guarantee the natural esher produces a better edge. The Jnat edges I have tried will rival any synthetic stone. Laser Sharp and but very forgiving - when doing the fools pass it just burns right through those whiskers with very very little resistance.
I would be glad to mix you up some crox powder free - that I formulate so it will spray on and actually stick when it dries.
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Re: Gokumyo 20k

Post by Southbound »

I thought I would share this literature on blade angles and convexing.lol Those shaving scientists/nerds need to read this:

https://patents.google.com/patent/US3461616
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Re: Gokumyo 20k

Post by drmoss_ca »

I guess we have to address the issue that when Aspies become obsessively interested in a topic they can lose the objective viewpoint, and become swayed by opinion (especially their own) rather than facts. It's a small step beyond that to assuming some flavour of a religious belief. Why are pastes wrong when they give you a sharp edge and a fine shave? It comes down to theology. It's wrong because we're fixated on the best edge in the universe made on hones and hones alone. And it soon becomes a dogmatic exclusion of any other way, which is heresy. All amplified by the putrid culture of judging your own worth by the number of likes you get on the internet; the weaponisation of dopamine as I've heard it described.

Before I start foaming at the mouth I'll return to the point: why the hell wouldn't you use pastes if you get good shaves that way? Shaving is, at its best, about good shaves. Nothing else. Honing nerds belong on blade forums, not on shaving forums. Honing can, and should, be a science. "Art" in these terms is a way of saying we don't understand all the science. The problem is when it becomes a religion.

Thanks for the offer of CrO2, but I have a large bag of it, tubs of homemade paste and a few bottles and tubs of commercial forms.
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Re: Gokumyo 20k

Post by Brutus »

Had a discussion - if that’s what one wants to call it - on a different forum with a member who was enraged that I dared to suggest that in my opinion factory-fresh Dovos are not quite shave ready.
Less than 6 months on that forum and who were other members, including me, to disagree with his weighty opinion, supported by a merchant whom this member obviously consider an irrefutable authority on the subject and who tries to convince people in an incomplete one pass shave video that factory new Dovos are in fact shave ready.

Only goes to show that there is a gulf between my idea of shave ready and theirs, and also reminded me why I spend so little time on that particular forum.

Regarding pasted strops; I know what works for me, everybody is welcome to his own epiphanies, but I am also open to new ideas.
To my simple mind, the hone gives me the sharp edge and the pasted strop tones the edge down a bit to give my a smooth, comfortable edge while sacrificing very little of the sharpness.

If that should offend the sensibilities of some self-anointed shaving inquisition, so be it.
For me “forum” means a meeting point to exchange ideas, which includes the right to reject or accept other opinions, not a place where one throws stones at heretics who dare to have a different opinion from one’s own.




B.
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.

Bertrand Russell
brothers
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Re: Gokumyo 20k

Post by brothers »

I've ignored my pastes and paddle strops out of laziness, I think. It wouldn't hurt to dust them off and give them a few strokes next time I've got a straight razor in use.
Gary

SOTD 99%: Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, soaps & creams, synthetic / badger brushes, Colonial General razor, Kai & Schick blades, straight razors any time, Superior 70 aftershave splash + menthol + 444
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Re: Gokumyo 20k

Post by Southbound »

Brutus wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:58 pm Had a discussion - if that’s what one wants to call it - on a different forum with a member who was enraged that I dared to suggest that in my opinion factory-fresh Dovos are not quite shave ready.
Less than 6 months on that forum and who were other members, including me, to disagree with his weighty opinion, supported by a merchant whom this member obviously consider an irrefutable authority on the subject and who tries to convince people in an incomplete one pass shave video that factory new Dovos are in fact shave ready.

Only goes to show that there is a gulf between my idea of shave ready and theirs, and also reminded me why I spend so little time on that particular forum.

Regarding pasted strops; I know what works for me, everybody is welcome to his own epiphanies, but I am also open to new ideas.
To my simple mind, the hone gives me the sharp edge and the pasted strop tones the edge down a bit to give my a smooth, comfortable edge while sacrificing very little of the sharpness.

If that should offend the sensibilities of some self-anointed shaving inquisition, so be it.
For me “forum” means a meeting point to exchange ideas, which includes the right to reject or accept other opinions, not a place where one throws stones at heretics who dare to have a different opinion from one’s own.




B.
My boker silver steel was out of wack when I bought it - it had a very large burrs/wire edge on it from the factory.
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Re: Gokumyo 20k

Post by brothers »

A few years back I bought two new razors at the same time, a Dovo and a TI. Neither was shave ready sharp, as I perceived and expected. I soon got rid of these disappointments. Looking back over the years, I think they were probably ready in the context of straight razor shaves, while I was expecting the smooth safety razor shaves. Two separate and distinctly different things. I know that to be true and am quite happy to use both types of razors, never comparing the apple to the orange.
Gary

SOTD 99%: Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, soaps & creams, synthetic / badger brushes, Colonial General razor, Kai & Schick blades, straight razors any time, Superior 70 aftershave splash + menthol + 444
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Re: Gokumyo 20k

Post by drmoss_ca »

I've bought far too many new razors, and the only ones that came sharp enough were customs where the maker had honed them himself. I think it is possible to hone a straight so that it is very close to the feel of a new safety blade, but such an edge takes some combination of skill, patience and luck! I certainly can't routinely obtain it, but when I do it makes the effort worthwhile.
"Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothèse."
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Re: Gokumyo 20k

Post by Southbound »

De blades for me are too floppy and thin to be stable during a shave. They tare up my face. Although with a straight I do prefer full hollows.
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Re: Gokumyo 20k

Post by EL Alamein »

brothers wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:01 pm A few years back I bought two new razors at the same time, a Dovo and a TI. Neither was shave ready sharp, as I perceived and expected. I soon got rid of these disappointments. Looking back over the years, I think they were probably ready in the context of straight razor shaves, while I was expecting the smooth safety razor shaves. Two separate and distinctly different things. I know that to be true and am quite happy to use both types of razors, never comparing the apple to the orange.
More than a decade ago I used to do honing for many of the online retailers of straights. The retailers would tell me that most straight razor purveyor's were not interested in providing a "shave ready" edge but only providing a "near shave ready" edge. And the purveyors eventually introduced a policy that if you got the factory edge honed before receiving it then it voided the warranty. The one exception was TI. They actually hired an old timer to finish their edges because they wanted "shave ready" edges. Well the old timer didn't work out as his edges were no better and the retailers would still have me hone his blades.

All at once this honing all stopped. Why I don't know, they just stopped calling and sending me razors. This was around the time most sites were bought out by a single entity so I suspect their were relationships in place when the contracts were inked.

My feedback on all my work was always excellent and was told on many occasions that I was the person they sent razors to for finishing (after it was honed by another person they contracted with). Many times they would just have an unhappy customer just send their razor directly to me for fixing in such a situation.

The takeaway for me is that any razor you buy whether advertised as "shave ready" or not is suspect. It's probable that whatever you buy it will need honing and tweaking to your tastes.

Chris
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