I decided to challenge the conventional wisdom around here and maybe generate some fun discussion along the way.
OK, so here's my two controversial statements for the day.
1) Water is more important than lather. If you hydrate your beard thoroughly, you can get by with a very wide spectrum of different lathering products (including stuff from a can). If you DON'T hydrate (by whatever method is most effective for you) it doesn't matter how good your product is . . . your shave will still be lousy. So a good lather is lovely and all, but it's WATER that really makes the shave.
2) You can't avoid some pressure. I know, I know, I know the mantra . . . .NO PRESSURE. Great advice, best practice, etc. But I'll bet most experience shavers in truth "scoop" into their face a little now and then to "hook" the beard in those tough-to-shave spots (I know I do). And even just resting the razor on your face creates SOME pressure. So the reality is you can't really shave with NO pressure, you can only shave using primarily light pressure, with at least some occasional "cheating"!
I don't want to get banned or anything, but let's mix it up a little!
Controversial Shaving
To point 2, I think the advice of NO PRESSURE EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER is offered because the beginner shaver will naturally apply some pressure, and if we advised just a little pressure he'd* end up with too much. By trying to apply none, we are more likely to end up with the right amount.
Is this the 5 minute argument or the full half hour.
(*I use "he", because I'm assuming anyone face shaving is male, but I've been wring before...)
Is this the 5 minute argument or the full half hour.
(*I use "he", because I'm assuming anyone face shaving is male, but I've been wring before...)
Give us the luxuries, and we will forgo the necessities.
Give a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.
Set a man on fire, he'll be toasty for the rest of his life.
Dominic
Give a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.
Set a man on fire, he'll be toasty for the rest of his life.
Dominic
Hey Beatles Fan - I'll bite... and I'll have to disagree with you on both accounts...
1) Yes, hot water is helpful. But to say it's more important than a good lather is stretching it. At least the way I shave. I can facelather without rinsing or washing my face beforehand and shave as as per usual with no big difference in the shave results. So, for me, hot water is lovely and all, but a nice, dense, slick lather is what makes the shave.
2) Regarding pressure, I'm in the "no pressure" camp. That is no added pressure besides the weight of the razor. I use mainly a Merkur HD and the weight of it is plenty sufficient to drop through the lather and engage with the beard - more pressure simply isn't necessary and in certain spots could cause some irritation.
So there! hahaha
Good thread, here. Looking forward to what other guys have to say.
1) Yes, hot water is helpful. But to say it's more important than a good lather is stretching it. At least the way I shave. I can facelather without rinsing or washing my face beforehand and shave as as per usual with no big difference in the shave results. So, for me, hot water is lovely and all, but a nice, dense, slick lather is what makes the shave.
2) Regarding pressure, I'm in the "no pressure" camp. That is no added pressure besides the weight of the razor. I use mainly a Merkur HD and the weight of it is plenty sufficient to drop through the lather and engage with the beard - more pressure simply isn't necessary and in certain spots could cause some irritation.
So there! hahaha
Good thread, here. Looking forward to what other guys have to say.
-Andrew-
even if you shave with out water, to make lather either by puck and brush or even out of the goo can. water is what makes the soap turn to lather.
this is wet shaving. you can hone a blade on a dry stone but water or oil helps a whole lot. same with your beard and face
so one way or the other water is involved
no pressure you say? holding the razor to your face is a point of pressure. and with a razor that has weight to it like a barberpole and hd
and a futur to name a few, thats all the pressure thats needed
with lighter razors like a ss some will have to add a little more than just keeping it to your face... the more blade exposure the less pressure
so there is always some pressure.. no pressure is to bring the point home when teaching another to shave properly and without any ill effects
marc
this is wet shaving. you can hone a blade on a dry stone but water or oil helps a whole lot. same with your beard and face
so one way or the other water is involved
no pressure you say? holding the razor to your face is a point of pressure. and with a razor that has weight to it like a barberpole and hd
and a futur to name a few, thats all the pressure thats needed
with lighter razors like a ss some will have to add a little more than just keeping it to your face... the more blade exposure the less pressure
so there is always some pressure.. no pressure is to bring the point home when teaching another to shave properly and without any ill effects
marc
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tomthorsen
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:36 pm
- Location: Bristol, UK
I have to agree on the water front - at least in principle. When I was using Mach 3 and other devil's implements, I regularly shaved in the shower with just water, or maybe a bit of shower gel. It worked well enough at the time (admittedly not as enjoyable as shaving is now though). So yes, I believe enough water is very important. After all, it is not called wet shaving for nothing.
Are we comparing the importance of (i) lather and water, or (ii) lather and wetting the beard before the shave?
If it's (i), well, that's a weird comparison because lather is partly composed of water. Kind of like wondering whether the car or its wheels are more important to a good drive.
If it's (ii), then I have to agree with Andrew. Lathering on my face is about all the prep I need. But no matter how long I leave my face under steaming water, it won't save me from a bad lather (whether that comes from a glycerin soap or goo from a can or a bar of dove). How you feel about (ii) is probably mainly a function of your skin type. My skin is very sensitive, so the most important thing for me is having adequate cushion, and I haven't found very many lathering agents that provide this. My father, on the other hand, comfortably shaves with water alone and no lather--but only after a hot shower.
If it's (i), well, that's a weird comparison because lather is partly composed of water. Kind of like wondering whether the car or its wheels are more important to a good drive.
If it's (ii), then I have to agree with Andrew. Lathering on my face is about all the prep I need. But no matter how long I leave my face under steaming water, it won't save me from a bad lather (whether that comes from a glycerin soap or goo from a can or a bar of dove). How you feel about (ii) is probably mainly a function of your skin type. My skin is very sensitive, so the most important thing for me is having adequate cushion, and I haven't found very many lathering agents that provide this. My father, on the other hand, comfortably shaves with water alone and no lather--but only after a hot shower.
Ian
"Anything less than the best is a felony"
--Vanilla Ice
"Anything less than the best is a felony"
--Vanilla Ice
Re: Controversial Shaving
I think you are right.BeatlesFan wrote: 1) Water is more important than lather. If you hydrate your beard thoroughly, you can get by with a very wide spectrum of different lathering products (including stuff from a can). If you DON'T hydrate (by whatever method is most effective for you) it doesn't matter how good your product is . . . your shave will still be lousy. So a good lather is lovely and all, but it's WATER that really makes the shave.
If I lather + hot towel + relather, I get a better beard prep than if I just lather, no matter what soap I use.
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bernards66
- Duke of Silvertip!
- Posts: 27393
- Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 1:02 pm
Well, Charles Roberts used to harp on the water business....which led him to introduce the notion of lathering with a block of Marseilles soap. Loads of lather, water all over the place, and....no cushion. Bad news...at least for me. Good lather is a balance of water and product. Exactly where the optimal balance is varies a little from shaver to shaver.
I think that Dominic is right about the pressure issue. The 'NO pressure!' mantra is there for newbies who are usually in the habit of bearing down with their multi-blade cartridges ( which you have to do somewhat to get them to cut ). If they use the same heavy handed approach with a DE they are likely to have problems. But yes, personally, I use a wee bit of 'pressure'. I'm not of the Joe Lerch school with the blade edge just barely skimming along above the skin line. I use the safety bar, and while it's mostly the weight of the razor head that provides the ommph, I DO add a little to it at times. But it's subtle and I wouldn't know how to begin to explain to someone in writing how I do it, or to what degree. It's just a learned thing.
Regards,
Gordon
I think that Dominic is right about the pressure issue. The 'NO pressure!' mantra is there for newbies who are usually in the habit of bearing down with their multi-blade cartridges ( which you have to do somewhat to get them to cut ). If they use the same heavy handed approach with a DE they are likely to have problems. But yes, personally, I use a wee bit of 'pressure'. I'm not of the Joe Lerch school with the blade edge just barely skimming along above the skin line. I use the safety bar, and while it's mostly the weight of the razor head that provides the ommph, I DO add a little to it at times. But it's subtle and I wouldn't know how to begin to explain to someone in writing how I do it, or to what degree. It's just a learned thing.
Regards,
Gordon
The no pressure word was supposed to be offered for the sake of helping someone new to the process avoid cutting themselves. Nobody really cares how hard you press the blade into your face, except you! It's not my face that's getting cut. So as we most often say, whatever works for you is what you should do, and also, if it hurts or cuts, then it's obviously not working for you. Do as you wish, and good luck!
Water is to be added in sufficient amounts to make the lather work at it's optimum level of performance. Again, the user determines what he wants from his particular choice of lather.
With regard to your challenge to conventional wisdom, I have a third challenge to add, and I'm experimenting with it currently, in anticipation of an upcoming project I'm going to be presenting here on the Soaps and Creams forum: Brushless.
"Brushes are an option, not a requirement". That is not a declaration of fact, it's a debatable hypothesis. Over the past week or so, I've purposely avoided the use of a brush with my daily shave. I've used a different shaving cream every day, Domenico Caracini 1913, SMN, I Coloniali, T&H Rose, TOBS Rose, GFT Sandalwood, and today, Coates Sandalwood. Soap in palm of hand, add shots of water, rub hands briskly together for varying periods of time until the resulting lather appears thick enough to rub into the beard, applying the lather to a pre-moistened and soaked beard, shave three or four passes with the DE razor, clean it up, and write down the results. I've had nothing but great results so far.
Sometime in the next week, I am going to start the formal brushless project, and will post everything in a thread I'll call something about Brushless Creams, and will be using a group of 13 Brushless Shaving Creams. None of the above named products I've already used or their brethren will be included, because I'm only using those as practice. This is going to be fun.
My brushes are getting restless and I think they're going to be quite cross with me before the whole thing eventually comes to an end.
Water is to be added in sufficient amounts to make the lather work at it's optimum level of performance. Again, the user determines what he wants from his particular choice of lather.
With regard to your challenge to conventional wisdom, I have a third challenge to add, and I'm experimenting with it currently, in anticipation of an upcoming project I'm going to be presenting here on the Soaps and Creams forum: Brushless.
"Brushes are an option, not a requirement". That is not a declaration of fact, it's a debatable hypothesis. Over the past week or so, I've purposely avoided the use of a brush with my daily shave. I've used a different shaving cream every day, Domenico Caracini 1913, SMN, I Coloniali, T&H Rose, TOBS Rose, GFT Sandalwood, and today, Coates Sandalwood. Soap in palm of hand, add shots of water, rub hands briskly together for varying periods of time until the resulting lather appears thick enough to rub into the beard, applying the lather to a pre-moistened and soaked beard, shave three or four passes with the DE razor, clean it up, and write down the results. I've had nothing but great results so far.
Sometime in the next week, I am going to start the formal brushless project, and will post everything in a thread I'll call something about Brushless Creams, and will be using a group of 13 Brushless Shaving Creams. None of the above named products I've already used or their brethren will be included, because I'm only using those as practice. This is going to be fun.
My brushes are getting restless and I think they're going to be quite cross with me before the whole thing eventually comes to an end.
Gary
SOTD 99%: Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, soaps & creams, synthetic / badger brushes, Colonial General razor, Kai & Schick blades, straight razors any time, Superior 70 aftershave splash + menthol + 444
SOTD 99%: Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, soaps & creams, synthetic / badger brushes, Colonial General razor, Kai & Schick blades, straight razors any time, Superior 70 aftershave splash + menthol + 444
Gary, have you given some thought to your methodology? When I was sampling Fitjar creams recently, I found I had to experiment over a period of weeks both with the quantity of product, and with my lathering technique, before I felt ready to write up the results. To challenge any bias in favor of the products I was testing, I shaved every third day with one of my favorite 3T creams. You might consider doing something like that and use your best brush and cream or soap periodically throughout the experiment.
Porter
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desertbadger
- Posts: 4192
- Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:42 pm
- Location: Southern CA desert
Good thread David!
#1 Water. A very long time ago (like maybe 30 years ago....
) I read an article from a shaving expert from London (forgot his name) that he felt the most important ingredient in shaving was the water. I believe that he was correct when it's used in the proper amount with the making of lather. In other words, a proper balance depending on the chosen soap/cream or whatever.
#2 Pressure. Yes you are correct and I think that Dominic described it very well. With a newbie, we should probably advise them to use just enough pressure to control the razor and steer it where it needs to go. To me anyway, that would make more sense than telling them "no pressure" which some will take as gospel, get a lousy shave, and then wonder what went wrong. But then again, till they get the right technique, a lot of newbie’s are coming off of using a Mach or something similar and too much "pressing down" the razor to the face will have equally not so great results.
Glad I grew up shaving when there was no high tech crap; you learned to shave with real blades, real quick!....
As a useless side note; if a newbie using a multi blade razor were ever to see me shave, he’d probably faint. Yes, you can put pressure with the razor on certain areas of the face, but this is learned through experience. Sort of like a veteran race car driver, who through the years knows exactly what his car will do, when to go really fast, when to take chances, and know when to back off. After 45 years of wet shaving, I think I may have figured out the route on my face and what I can do and should not do....
#1 Water. A very long time ago (like maybe 30 years ago....
) I read an article from a shaving expert from London (forgot his name) that he felt the most important ingredient in shaving was the water. I believe that he was correct when it's used in the proper amount with the making of lather. In other words, a proper balance depending on the chosen soap/cream or whatever.#2 Pressure. Yes you are correct and I think that Dominic described it very well. With a newbie, we should probably advise them to use just enough pressure to control the razor and steer it where it needs to go. To me anyway, that would make more sense than telling them "no pressure" which some will take as gospel, get a lousy shave, and then wonder what went wrong. But then again, till they get the right technique, a lot of newbie’s are coming off of using a Mach or something similar and too much "pressing down" the razor to the face will have equally not so great results.
Glad I grew up shaving when there was no high tech crap; you learned to shave with real blades, real quick!....
As a useless side note; if a newbie using a multi blade razor were ever to see me shave, he’d probably faint. Yes, you can put pressure with the razor on certain areas of the face, but this is learned through experience. Sort of like a veteran race car driver, who through the years knows exactly what his car will do, when to go really fast, when to take chances, and know when to back off. After 45 years of wet shaving, I think I may have figured out the route on my face and what I can do and should not do....
Regards,
David
David
Thanks. Good suggestions. I have been thinking a lot about it.95% wrote:Gary, have you given some thought to your methodology? When I was sampling Fitjar creams recently, I found I had to experiment over a period of weeks both with the quantity of product, and with my lathering technique, before I felt ready to write up the results. To challenge any bias in favor of the products I was testing, I shaved every third day with one of my favorite 3T creams. You might consider doing something like that and use your best brush and cream or soap periodically throughout the experiment.
Gary
SOTD 99%: Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, soaps & creams, synthetic / badger brushes, Colonial General razor, Kai & Schick blades, straight razors any time, Superior 70 aftershave splash + menthol + 444
SOTD 99%: Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, soaps & creams, synthetic / badger brushes, Colonial General razor, Kai & Schick blades, straight razors any time, Superior 70 aftershave splash + menthol + 444
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fallingwickets
- Clive the Thumb
- Posts: 8813
- Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:59 am
I'm in the water is unimportant camp. Two handfuls is it for me.....try shaving a 3-4 day beard by hydrating it with water compared to having a magnificent lather. Fully hydrated i.e. face under water for >10 minutes makes hardly any difference. It's what you add to that hydration (or lack thereof) that matters. If hydration mattered more than what you lathered with, the great soap and cream debates wouldn't occur outside the scent equation
Clive
Clive
de gustibus non est disputandum
Water is important to have whiskers well prepared and usually this after I have had a shower and applied the shampoo also on my beard.
I used to believe in rinsing my face between passes, but only found it unnecessary. Also I believe in the lather to be not too moist and runny. It does not protect enough.
I used to believe in rinsing my face between passes, but only found it unnecessary. Also I believe in the lather to be not too moist and runny. It does not protect enough.
Jarmo
This thread made me do an experimet over the last week. I have only shaved with lovely lather on a dry face, that is I face lathered and the water was luke warm at its warmest. I've used: Trumpers Rose SS, TOBS Rose SC, MWF and Castle Forbs Lavender and I have had DFS shaves every day. I have to say I was a bit surprised because I thought I would experience at least some tugging.
After this I have to aggree with the water is unimportent group.
Also, my water has nevet met a calcium molecule if that is of importence.
After this I have to aggree with the water is unimportent group.
Also, my water has nevet met a calcium molecule if that is of importence.
Eric
Well on point one I believe in good strong hot water. I find that my shaves go really well after the shower. Then moisten my face and proceed to lather. I like to leep the lather "loose". That is, it gets to the consistency of sauce not meringue, if that analogy helps at all. I find that lather that's too thick won't cushion. I have to assume that later that's too thick has too much soap and not enough water.
On the point of pressure, I to tend to press a bit on my razor to get a BBS shave, but great care must be taken so as not to scrape the skin. There have been times when I can see the track of the blade in my skin after a bad shave and that's because of too much pressure.
As always YMMV.
On the point of pressure, I to tend to press a bit on my razor to get a BBS shave, but great care must be taken so as not to scrape the skin. There have been times when I can see the track of the blade in my skin after a bad shave and that's because of too much pressure.
As always YMMV.