JayTrek wrote:Wendell...my wife thinks all the time that I have a mental ailment.
jww wrote:I loved both Manchester's volumes on Churchill -- sad that he passed away before he could complete the next couple of volumes as Alone ends with much more story left to tell.
I remember reading and re-reading the reference to Churchill's shaving -- and even called it out to my wife at the time.
She claimed that I had a severe ailment.
My wife is utterly convinced that I have a severe, irreparable ailment because I wet shave, collect vintage and modern fountain pens and fence. Sorry for the digression.
I am with you on all counts except for the fencing.
Rufus wrote:
JayTrek wrote:Wendell...my wife thinks all the time that I have a mental ailment.
jww wrote:I loved both Manchester's volumes on Churchill -- sad that he passed away before he could complete the next couple of volumes as Alone ends with much more story left to tell.
I remember reading and re-reading the reference to Churchill's shaving -- and even called it out to my wife at the time.
She claimed that I had a severe ailment.
My wife is utterly convinced that I have a severe, irreparable ailment because I wet shave, collect vintage and modern fountain pens and fence. Sorry for the digression.
Without any historiographical supporting sources, my sense is that "brand loyalty" was, during Sir Winston's lifetime, insignificant. The idea of a shave and a haircut being a big event which you booked in advance would have surprised people. You strolled around to Trumper or Truefitt or Thomas's as the mood took you. You might have had your favourite but it wasn't an occasion of much prior consideration, as is my understanding.
Without any historiographical etc etc, I also have an instinctive feeling that Winston would have been a Truefitt & Hill man. As for grooming products, if I had to make a guess on what a man of his age and class would use, it would be hair lotion: (a) Trumpers' Eucris, (b) Thomas's Royal Yacht or (c) Truefitt's C.A.R. I can't back this up; just instinct.
The Penhaligon's / Blenheim business is another matter. I first encountered Penhaligon's at Truefitt & Hill in the mid-1970s. Gordon knows more about this than I do, but Truefitt's was the only place you could get Penhaligon, and the only thing they did was Blenheim Bouquet, and, IIRC, the only form that came in was the "extract" -- perfume-strength. All the rest followed a few years later when Sheila Pickles took over the Penhaligon brand. So would Winston have been able to buy it, even? I wonder. Gordon may put us right on all this, of course.
Michael
People say it's never too late. How wrong they are. --Felix Dennis
Jani, Yes, I'm sure that was just a typo on Michael's part. It's hard to say because Michael's personal experiance only goes back to after 'Penhaligon's', as such, was on it's last legs or already actually closed. Sheila Pickles, financially backed by Visconti and others, bought the rights, the formula and day books...everything that remained, from T&H ( which was owned by Ivan Bersch at the time along with Trumpers ). When she did, the scents that emerged were Hammam, of course, along with Blenheim, English Fern, and Douro which she renamed 'Lords' after the cricket field. So, my belief, even though I can't prove it, is that these were original William Penhaligon scents recreated pretty much as they existed in the old formula books. If that is so, then it's entirely possible that Churchill may have used the Blenheim Bouquet scent is some form. Of course, that wouldn't prove that he actually DID, only that he could have. I have to wonder about Churchill and hair dressings. While I have no doubt that Michael is correct regarding hair dressings being the main 'scent' that most Englishman wore during Churchill's time, I've always had the impression that the genuine upper class tended to brush aside the upper middle class's prejudice against men's 'scent', ie, toilet water/cologne. Afterall, who was buying all that Hammam Bouquet extract for all those decades? There's a scene in another movie where the Churchill character is in the wash room at Parliment and there are big bottles of toilet water there and he rubs some on his hands and neck. This may be accurate I think. And Churchill generally had his hair cut really short so I don't know as he necessarily would have used any hair dressing although he may have. Again, hard historical data for any of this stuff is largely lacking. The Valet razor business is solid however.
Regards,
Gordon
Gordon, the scene that you describe with the big bottles of toilet water comes from The Gathering Storm, the prequel to the movie that I wrote about in this post.
By the by, IMHO, Albert Finney played a much better Churchill in The Gathering Storm than Brendan Gleeson played in the sequel, Into The Storm. The former was a better movie overall, again IMHO. Both were were very enjoyable and well done films, however, I think that ITS tried to condense the monumental events of Churchill during The War Years into a too-short two hours. YMMV and all that....
Gary Young wrote:Well I don't know about his soaps, razors, etc but I do know he liked a Simpson! A couple of 'customs' were made during the 1930s and 1940s.
Gary
That's great to know Gary, gives new meaning to this quote by Churchill:
"My tastes are simple: I am easily satisfied with the best."
— Winston Churchill
Speaking of Penhaligons, I have sent you a PM about that NOS Hammam you were asking about, please reply if you get this.
David
Bargepole wrote:Without any historiographical supporting sources, my sense is that "brand loyalty" was, during Sir Winston's lifetime, insignificant. The idea of a shave and a haircut being a big event which you booked in advance would have surprised people. You strolled around to Trumper or Truefitt or Thomas's as the mood took you. You might have had your favourite but it wasn't an occasion of much prior consideration, as is my understanding.
Without any historiographical etc etc, I also have an instinctive feeling that Winston would have been a Truefitt & Hill man. As for grooming products, if I had to make a guess on what a man of his age and class would use, it would be hair lotion: (a) Trumpers' Eucris, (b) Thomas's Royal Yacht or (c) Truefitt's C.A.R. I can't back this up; just instinct.
The Penhaligon's / Blenheim business is another matter. I first encountered Penhaligon's at Truefitt & Hill in the mid-1970s. Gordon knows more about this than I do, but Truefitt's was the only place you could get Penhaligon, and the only thing they did was Blenheim Bouquet, and, IIRC, the only form that came in was the "extract" -- perfume-strength. All the rest followed a few years later when Sheila Pickles took over the Penhaligon brand. So would Winston have been able to buy it, even? I wonder. Gordon may put us right on all this, of course.
David speaks a dozen languages and has friends from here to the Sudan.. he'll blend in; disappear; you'll never see him again. With any luck, he has The Grail already..
I wish the Churchill and Hitler questions had come up 20 years ago, less for Churchill. A friend of mine had the job of covering Hitler for Hearst from the time he rose to power until the end of the war and was the first reporter to get into the "Eagle's Nest" in Bertchesgaden when US troops took it. He interviewed Hitler personally before the war and a couple of his interviews can be found on the Internet. I knew Churchill's grandson Winston slightly as a result of some work I did and had lunch a couple of times with him in New York several years ago. Naturally, I did not think of asking him what the senior Churchill used to shave and have no idea if he even knew but it would have been great to learn.
Sorry Squire but both sources are dead. The reporter died about 30 years ago and Churchill's grandson died a year ago last March. If the grandson were still alive I would be happy to pay for the call myself. As for Hitler, I can't imagine that he would allow anybody to shave him yet barbershops were built in all the bunkers. Somehow in the deep recesses of my mind I have some kind of recollection of his having someone who shaved him but the thought is very hazy. However, I read that he would never have surgery because of his fear of being killed on the table yet he was wounded in the Von Stauffenberg bombing and I have never heard whether he had surgery then or not. On the other hand, he did let that medical quack fill him full of all sorts of things via a needle. I ran a seach on Google about Hitler's barber but turned up nothing definitive.
Well, Valet razor has been mentioned for Churchill ,at least, during a certain period of his life. I've read ,on more than one occasion, that (both) Hitler & Mussolini had custom gold Gillette's made for them at the Boston factory.
A little search has turned-up this photo ,from a fellow in Germany, who was asked this very question by an American that's being kicked around on this thread. Shows personal razor of Adolf in it's ivory case.
Another ,somewhat related, picture of interest is; the personal razor-set of J.F.K. used while he was personal secretary to his father ,then, Ambassador to the Court of St. James during the late '30s. It was a gift from his dad. He evidently left it behind in a dresser drawer when they left England and it found it's way to an antique shop. An American airline pilot ,passing an afternoon, stumbled upon it ,and it's said, purchased it immediately.
Fitch, Fascinating. I'm thinking that the Hitler razor must be from Berlin as I believe the on at the Eagle's Nest was filched by one of the occupying American GIs...unless, of course, this is that one, that it surfaced again at a later date in some collection. And the early JFK razor is marked as 'The Traveler' but it seems to be a version of the Bostonian model, which would certainly be appropriate. Thanks for the photos.
Regards,
Gordon
No problem guys. The Hitler Gillette set ,the German fellow say's; is in a German museum with a collection of effects of his. I can hunt-down that museum name if interested. The JFK set is in the possession of a Kennedy collector ,whom seems legit, but one never knows. These items seem to be just things used during 'moments' of their lives. I've read of Kennedy using a straight on himself while a Senator. He was a spoiled, careless sort ,and the leaving behind of that razor would not surprise me. Perhaps, Hitler was using something different later...again tough to say. I'm careful about this idol worship thing. I have problems with all four mentioned. But, that's a different issue. For fun...I'll surmise Hitler used a shave soap by Klar. Mussolini, gosh, a myriad of Italian 'in-house' soft barber soaps could've been used. Cella let's say. Churchill; for some reason *tonight* I see using a Pears shaving stick. Kennedy being a New Englander, and having simple tastes ,until later, I bet a Williams stick was in that set & whilst in London he might of replaced it with a Vinolia or Erasmic one. Just having a bit of fun ,so who knows..
I really wonder what Cameron, Merkel *smile*, Berlusconi & Obama use today? That would be interesting...a little.
bernards66 wrote:Fitch, Fascinating. I'm thinking that the Hitler razor must be from Berlin as I believe the on at the Eagle's Nest was filched by one of the occupying American GIs...unless, of course, this is that one, that it surfaced again at a later date in some collection. And the early JFK razor is marked as 'The Traveler' but it seems to be a version of the Bostonian model, which would certainly be appropriate. Thanks for the photos.
Regards,
Gordon
Gordon, I think your natural 'instinct' is pretty sound here. I've read that that razor-set shown above is from his Munich years. He also shaved himself daily and liked Pine bath soap....no cologne nor pun meant either.
Fitch: who knows if these are the real stuff or not but I like to believe they are. My experience with history is that, like Quantum physics, some things are unknown and unknowable. These certainly look legit although we all know that the initials AH and JFK were not unique to the historic figures we are discussing. Still, I want to believe these are the real McCoy!
F.W. Fitch wrote:No problem guys. The Hitler Gillette set ,the German fellow say's; is in a German museum with a collection of effects of his. I can hunt-down that museum name if interested. The JFK set is in the possession of a Kennedy collector ,whom seems legit, but one never knows. These items seem to be just things used during 'moments' of their lives. I've read of Kennedy using a straight on himself while a Senator. He was a spoiled, careless sort ,and the leaving behind of that razor would not surprise me. Perhaps, Hitler was using something different later...again tough to say. I'm careful about this idol worship thing. I have problems with all four mentioned. But, that's a different issue. For fun...I'll surmise Hitler used a shave soap by Klar. Mussolini, gosh, a myriad of Italian 'in-house' soft barber soaps could've been used. Cella let's say. Churchill; for some reason *tonight* I see using a Pears shaving stick. Kennedy being a New Englander, and having simple tastes ,until later, I bet a Williams stick was in that set & whilst in London he might of replaced it with a Vinolia or Erasmic one. Just having a bit of fun ,so who knows..
I really wonder what Cameron, Merkel *smile*, Berlusconi & Obama use today? That would be interesting...a little.
Best,
Jared
Jared, yeah, it is fascinating stuff. You've obviously read the Ted White article in Time Magazine where he describes President-Elect Kennedy waving his aides away on the morning he learned of his win so he could shave with a straight razor. I've linked to that before and some folks claim Ted White was a conscious myth maker and I don't doubt it. However I didn't quite agree with his reasoning as to why he thought it beneficial to mention JFK used a straight after he won the election. But in truth, who knows for sure as most who surrounded him are past on.
I am looking forward to listening to those Jackie Kennedy tapes that are being released tomorrow. Even though it seems most of the surprises have been published I'm curious as to what else she has to mention that may just be boring minutiae.
