Winston Churchill

F.W. Fitch · Post by **F.W. Fitch** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:14 pm

Harper, I think both those pictured are the real deal. They appear to have had the letters of provenance accompanying them before they were acquired. Neat relics for certain!

Hi Chris. Yes! I noticed you had already beat me to this JFK matter from earlier in the year. I stumbled on that thread during my searching. I'd read the "Making of the President" series over twenty years ago and remembered this reference. I didn't realize there had been a Time article, that also made mention, until you linked it there. I tend to put faith in Theodore Whites' historicity. He was a brilliant man who had experienced quite a lot in his lifetime. He was in China during the war and watched Mao rise to power etc. Although a 'liberal' he was an old fashioned, no nonsense one! The type gone the way of the dodo sad to say. In addition, he was not a Kennedy 'insider.' If it was Arthur Schlesinger or Ted Sorensen...I would take their accounts with a grain-of-salt. They were Kennedy 'walk-on-the-water' types.

Lastly, just to touch on the razor-set again. I've seen people claim it was used during his Naval service. That could be ,but those were not made during that period...had to be earlier, as mentioned, when he was serving his dad in the 30's. Just basic detective work there!

Best,
Jared

EL Alamein · Post by **EL Alamein** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:27 pm

Jared, true all around. Now if someone actually finds JFK's straight razor and displays it I think that would be fascinating.

Chris

harper · Post by **harper** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:10 am

Fiftch: I never doubted your word, only curious that they might be like the wooden candlesticks I have that says they were made from the original wood used in the the White House after it was burned in 1812 and rebuilt in 1927. I don't know if that is true or not but the sticker on the bottom says they were and I prefer to believe it.

Unfortunately, I am always late in this but the guy I mentioned earlier who covered Hitler for Hearst also had JFK working for him in Berlin for several months in the late 30s and might have known. I asked him during the time JFK was President what he was like on a personal level and he said he was a great emplyee: money was short in the pockets of Berliners and JFK always walked around with $3oo or $400 dollars and so the two of them were kings.

rsp1202 · Post by **rsp1202** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:29 pm

harper wrote:. . . I asked him during the time JFK was President what he was like on a personal level and he said he was a great emplyee: money was short in the pockets of Berliners and JFK always walked around with $3oo or $400 dollars and so the two of them were kings.

I guess things changed somewhere along the way, since later stories of when JFK was president talk about him never carrying cash, with his aides and Secret Service detail having to pick up his tabs. I don't recall reading that he ever paid them back. That's one reason why I have no millionaire friends.

F.W. Fitch · Post by **F.W. Fitch** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:26 pm

harper wrote:Fiftch: I never doubted your word, only curious that they might be like the wooden candlesticks I have that says they were made from the original wood used in the the White House after it was burned in 1812 and rebuilt in 1927. I don't know if that is true or not but the sticker on the bottom says they were and I prefer to believe it.

I know you didn't Harper. No trouble/misunderstanding my friend!

You should of been travelling around the country ,during the '76 Bicentennial, aboard the Amer. Freedom Train with your sticks...laugh. You better light 'em up next year by god! Have a good day....

Best,
Fitch

harper · Post by **harper** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:57 am

Ron, I suspect that is true. I have known several multimillionaires and most of them did not carry cash because they had others to pay for them. I remember once in Washington, DC. and Randy Hearst and I (we were doing work for Hearst Consolidated) and it started to rain and neither of us had a raincoat and it was necessary to go somewhere. We ran into a hotel shop and bought plastic raincoats for $6 a piece. Randy, actually a very good guy who deserved better than his daughter Patty doing what she did, never paid me back. However, my friend said that JFK at that time did carry loads of cash on him but that obviously changed as he grew older and had more people around him to take care of paying for things.

But, they all get up in the morning and shave the same as we do, at least many of them.

Squire · Post by **Squire** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:23 am

harper you are a wellspring of first person anecdote.

harper · Post by **harper** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:43 am

Squire: I have been fortunate in my life in that because of my work I have had the opportunity of meeting and working with many famous and important people ... not always the same. I have also been lucky to have seen much of the world ... and earn money while doing it ... and I am grateful. However, I always remember that most of the time I am the spear carrier and not the spear thrower and there are worlds of difference.

Now, if I could only manage to shave my neck with a DE without getting weepers I would consider myself truly blessed.

Squire · Post by **Squire** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:34 pm

You'll learn, you're young yet.

harper · Post by **harper** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:52 pm

Squire: in Quantum Physics there is something called the "uncertainty principle" which says some things are unknown and unknowable because in trying to measure the size of some particle the act of measuring it causes it to change its size so its size is always unknown and unknowable. I think that shaving my neck with a DE falls into that area so most of the time I switch to a Power Pro Glide and it usually does the trick. One of my problems in the neck area is that I have whiskers that grow in every direction so I can't just go down or up or even shave side to side and get them all. And sometimes to get that abberant whisker or two I use an electric which also is good for my moustache.

Rufust445 · Post by **Rufust445** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:32 am

harper wrote:Squire: in Quantum Physics there is something called the "uncertainty principle" which says some things are unknown and unknowable because in trying to measure the size of some particle the act of measuring it causes it to change its size so its size is always unknown and unknowable. ...

Or, as we used to say at work, and on days when I don't need a BBS shave: "Close enough for a government job." There are a lot of things that work in the world in spite of the "uncertainty principle," besides DE razors.

harper · Post by **harper** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:10 am

Rufust445

I would think about one million of them.

Remember, as we used to challenge the Communists about things that work: "It works in practice but does in work in theory?"

And even moderation can be carried to excess!!

Squire · Post by **Squire** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:50 pm

harper the closest I can come to grasping that Quantum Physics uncertainty principal is it might apply to the mystery of women.

Gene · Post by **Gene** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 1:47 pm

I am more of a cat man myself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger's_cat

Rufust445 · Post by **Rufust445** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:15 pm

Squire wrote:harper the closest I can come to grasping that Quantum Physics uncertainty principal is it might apply to the mystery of women.

One principle about women you can be certain of is that they make the rules in relationships. The other is that when enough women feel that too many men are catching on to the rules, they hold a meeting in the powder room and change the rules.

harper · Post by **harper** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:27 pm

To borrow from Rumsfeld, there are knowns and unknowns and there are the known unknowns and the unknown unknowns and it is a given that women are all of these.

Squire · Post by **Squire** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:32 pm

But damn they're cute.

harper · Post by **harper** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:44 pm

One last comment from me about Churchill; his mother was Jenny Jerome and she was born in Brooklyn and lived there and later in New York City. One time when I was visiting New York a friend of mine showed me the house where she had lived ... an elegant brownstone on east 50th ot 51st avenue which at the time had been modernized into an elegant suite of offices. I would love to own or rent a place like that and I am reminded that a home that Machiavelli once lived in was on the market in Florence.

To stay somewhat on topic, I doubt that Jenny Jerome shaved but from the photos of Machiavelli I have seen, he did. He did not, of course, use a multi-blade razor.

EL Alamein · Post by **EL Alamein** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:07 am

EL Alamein wrote:
F.W. Fitch wrote:No problem guys. The Hitler Gillette set ,the German fellow say's; is in a German museum with a collection of effects of his. I can hunt-down that museum name if interested. The JFK set is in the possession of a Kennedy collector ,whom seems legit, but one never knows. These items seem to be just things used during 'moments' of their lives. I've read of Kennedy using a straight on himself while a Senator. He was a spoiled, careless sort ,and the leaving behind of that razor would not surprise me. Perhaps, Hitler was using something different later...again tough to say. I'm careful about this idol worship thing. I have problems with all four mentioned. But, that's a different issue. For fun...I'll surmise Hitler used a shave soap by Klar. Mussolini, gosh, a myriad of Italian 'in-house' soft barber soaps could've been used. Cella let's say. Churchill; for some reason *tonight* I see using a Pears shaving stick. Kennedy being a New Englander, and having simple tastes ,until later, I bet a Williams stick was in that set & whilst in London he might of replaced it with a Vinolia or Erasmic one. Just having a bit of fun ,so who knows..

I really wonder what Cameron, Merkel *smile*, Berlusconi & Obama use today? That would be interesting...a little.

Best,
Jared
Jared, yeah, it is fascinating stuff. You've obviously read the Ted White article in Time Magazine where he describes President-Elect Kennedy waving his aides away on the morning he learned of his win so he could shave with a straight razor. I've linked to that before and some folks claim Ted White was a conscious myth maker and I don't doubt it. However I didn't quite agree with his reasoning as to why he thought it beneficial to mention JFK used a straight after he won the election. But in truth, who knows for sure as most who surrounded him are past on.

I am looking forward to listening to those Jackie Kennedy tapes that are being released tomorrow. Even though it seems most of the surprises have been published I'm curious as to what else she has to mention that may just be boring minutiae.

Chris

So it has become unclear to me as to when Ted White's scene with the straight razor unfolds. A closer reading of the article doesn't say it was the day after but that much is implied. Furthermore it seems to contradict Jackie's memory as stated in her taped interviews with Arthur Schlesinger. She recalls that she is the one that woke JFK that morning after election day and they still did not know he had won the election until later that day around noon when they were already out and about. She makes no mention of anyone else being there. So perhaps White's memory is a bit confused or perhaps it was conscious myth-making.

Of course Jackie may not be remembering things accurately either as so far there were a few things that she recalls and then has to recant later because through conversation with Schlesinger she realizes that she has not recalled an incident or scene correctly and has confused it with another time or place. Anyway, it sort of puts this story in doubt.

Chris

alcx77 · Post by **alcx77** » Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:04 pm

Dont know what to make of this thread other than it is interesting.