Bread

[dosco]

I made a nice batch of sourdough bread yesterday, and finally got an "ear" on the grigne. My shaping was terrible but everything else came together.

Brian, thanks for the starter! I fed it tonight to make the next batch of dough...I'll be using the recipe from Reinhart's BBA but with a slightly higher hydration (72 to 74 percent) and a 36 hour cold fermentation.

The kids really loved this batch and wiped out 1 loaf today (I gave the other to a friend). That hasn't happened very often.

I'm on my iPad and don't know how to access the image info ... So more info on my bread blog.

[ShadowsDad]

Glad the sourdough is working for you!

By far I prefer sourdough. But I still make "ordinary" yeast white bread or English muffin bread from time to time for a change of pace. If one has nothing to compare it to it loses it's flavor.

I don't know if I mentioned it, but when I get some time I intend to use that starter for NY Rye aka as Jewish Rye. It's the bread we'd drive into the city to get. The NY rye I remember had Charnushka (nigella) seeds in/on it and were coal black. Simply delicious bread and IMO the best bread I've ever tasted. It made the best toast too. But rye doesn't act at all like wheat so it's a completely different learning curve.

To date the best rye bread I've made is a King Arthur Flour recipe. I don't make it much becaus eof the required first clear flour that's required. Shipping costs more than purchasing the flour. If I could buy it locally Imight not try to make any other rye. It's that good. Anyway, here's the recipe. I don't think KAF will mind the post since it sells their first clear flour. (FWIW, I'm BBQiM in the recipe)

Peasant Style Rye Bread

Makes 1 loaf, either rustic round or in a loaf pan.
This is the best homemade rye bread I've made to date. I made the loaf in a loaf pan so that we could easily use it for sandwiches. The loaf has a light texture suitable for sandwich bread, and it's excellent for toasting.

Peasant style Rye Bread

Ingredients:

1cup + 3 TBLSP lukewarm water
2 TBLSP sugar
1 1/4 cups white rye or pumpernickle flour (I used KAF rye blend- BBQiM)
2 1/4 tsps dry yeast

1/2 cup sour cream
2 tsps caraway seeds (I added another 2 tsps charnushka seeds- BBQiM)
1 1/2 tsps salt
2 cups first clear flour
2 TBLS vital wheat gluten (optional, for a stronger rise)

Stir together the first 4 ingredients. Allow to rest for 20 minutes. Add the rest of the ingredients, mix until dough holds together, then knead for 4-5 minutes. Allow to rest briefly, then knead another 4-5 minutes. The dough will be sticky, don't be tempted to add too much flour. Too much additional flour will yield a too dry loaf, making it dry and crumbly.

Place the dough in an oiled bowl, cover and let rise til doubled in size, deflate and form into a smooth ball, place the ball on a greased baking sheet. Cover and let rise until almost doubled in size. Carefully slash the loaf 2-3 times, then bake in a preheated 350* F oven for 35-40 minutes. The interior of the loaf should register 195*F or higher. Remove from the oven and cool on a rack.

King Arthur Flour recipe.

[dosco]

Brian:
I too have bern considering a sourdough rye. Reinhart has a few recipes for rye bread. I'll compare the KAF recipe to Reinhart's.

I think he has some recommendations for first clear flour, I'll have to take a look at that. Can you make your own?

Regards-
Dave

[ShadowsDad]

I don't really know what first clear flour is. I read about it at one time and it didn't mean much, so I've forgotten what I read. I think it has something to do with the way flour is made today, which I can't do, and even if I could, I wouldn't do. I haven't spent any significant time on rye bread yet, at least not as it pertains to fresh ground rye berries, but that's my goal. I've spent just enough time with rye bread to know how different it is from wheat. I can see a few things with ALL rye recipes that I've ever seen that I don't think will work with whole rye flour. Bran is death for the gluten network. One of the ways to help dodge the issue is fine grinding. That's not a problem. But the chemicals contained in the bran still destroys the gluten and rye needs all it can get. So I'm thinking I'll need to add more dough conditioners to strengthen it, maybe some additional gluten too. I'll get it, it'll just take experimental loaves. Hopefully I'll have a few failed loaves since no one learns a darn thing when successful right from the start. That may sound strange, but I want to understand the ingredients.

FWIW, the KAF recipe isn't sourdough. It uses the sour cream for the "tart" and also for dough conditioner. A twofer.

[dosco]

According to Peter Reinhart "first clear" flour is the flour that made it through the first sifting. So some finely ground bran and germ would make it into the flour, but the coarser stuff would get sifted out.

"Second Clear" or "patent" flour is the flour resulting from a second sifting, and is essentially what we use today in bread/AP flour.

So I'm thinking that one could replicate "first clear" by mixing some WW flour into the white bread or AP flour.

Or, you could order it from King Arthur Flour.

[ShadowsDad]

OK, I sorta knew that. Dave they don't commercially grind flour today the same way that you and I do. We use the old technology and use everything in the wheat berry. Commercially they grind once and sift (or winnow, however it's actually done), then grind again and sift in a reduction process. Doing this a number of times they remove all of the nutrients (the parts that will spoil) and keep the junk. Then they add nutrients back that won't spoil. The commercial mills do this as many times as required to get the final result that they want.

The first clear is probably pure endosperm; no germ, no bran, just pure carb'. I didn't google it, but I'm betting it's part of the first reduction system of the grinding, where they can get pure endosperm, or very close to pure endosperm. I'm not going to go into the specifics of modern milling, but it's basically a "purification" process and the goal is flour with no natural nutrients remaining. Natural nutrients spoil, the ones the FDA tell the millers they can add back in don't. In 1941 the FDA decided they knew all there was to know about nutrition as it pertains to flour and that's when they said, "Add these nutrients.". In 1998 they realized that there was one they might have missed in their previous nutritional hubris and said to add folic acid. Now for sure, today, the FDA really knows all there is to know about nutrition in flour.

I grind the whole berry so as to have all of the real nutrients including the bran and the ones the FDA doesn't even know are there. OK, so I won't be needing any more first clear flour now that I know what it is. That sort of flour is precisely what I don't want to use for my bread. Expensive as it is to have shipped to me, it's yet another reason for me to just say "No".

That loaf of rye sure was delicious though.

[dosco]

I think it might be more accurate to say that "first clear" is one step removed from whole wheat. But you know more about it than I, I think.

I made some sourdough bread using your starter ... I baked it this morning and then had to run. My older daughter had some and indicated that it was excellent, so when I get home I'll have a bit and report back. I followed Reinhart's "Basic Sourdough Bread" recipe, however this time the flour autolysed for 24 hours and the final dough cold fermented for 60 hours (had to fit it into my schedule). I also had a bit of a problem with shaping and proofing (I was rushing things this morning and the dough was underproofed when it went into the oven), however one loaf had a decent "ear" and I'm expecting goodness.

More later.

PS: Have you tried drying and freezing your starter to save/store as a backup? I was reading about it on TFL and it seems pretty straightforward.

[ShadowsDad]

I haven't frozen any. It would be worth trying. That's how domestic yeast is kept pure. But there may be bacteria in the soudough also and freezing might hurt that. I simply don't know. Try it and see what happens.

I've persued another avenue to make sure I have access to it should mine ever die... I've spread it to the wind. Someday I may ask you to send me some, but that day isn't now. I also have 2 starerts going, from the same 250 year old culture. One is wheat, the other is rye. It would be a simple matter to restart the other and just change what it eats. I doubt both would go belly up at the same time unless I do something really stupid. It could happen.

[dosco]

Brian:
Take a look at this TFL thread as well as this TFL thread to get started.

This Breadtopia article also describes the process including a mention about storage in the freezer.

I *need* to do this. My starter seems to work quite well, despite the apparent lack of sour flavor in the end product.

Regards-
Dave

PS: I made a batch of rye bread using your starter and this Dave Snyder recipe (44% rye flour) from TFL. I'm not sure what to think. It tastes good and the crumb is certainly light and airy, but is not very rye-ish. The dough was a bit sticky to handle, and without a Banneton for proofing the loaves were a bit misshapen.

PPS: I have started a Quinoa starter in an effort to make some gluten free bread for my wife. Should be interesting to see what happens.

[ShadowsDad]

Those DS loaves look exactly the way the JRbread of my childhood looked. That starch finish really makes the loaf shine. He used caraway though and the seeds I remember are charnuska, nigella, or black caraway. They have a similar but different flavor. If the starter I sent isn't sour enough get some San Francisco Sourdough starter. I had some years ago, but killed it by not feeding it. If you go that route, don't forget your buddy Brian.

I'm going to develop a sourdough Rye recipe similar to my wheat bread recipe(s), which use huge amounts of rye starter so that I can make it in a few hours with no biga or ferment. Yes, rye bread is extremely sticky. It's completely different from wheat bread in feel. Don't adjust the recipes to firm them up. If you do the resulting bread will be crumbly and you won't like it at all.

I think I'll put some starter in the freezer as insurance. ... Since 1990!? Amazing. Good info. Thanks! Too, drying it will make shipping it much easier.