Question about possibly stale flour

Share recipes and tips, or memorable restaurant experiences here.
User avatar
drmoss_ca
Admin
Posts: 10731
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:39 pm

Question about possibly stale flour

Post by drmoss_ca »

This is most likely directed at Brian. I have been using a Zojirushi bread machine with (what is to me) great success. My dear wife has been keeping the 'dry goods' shelves in the basement so well stocked you might think she was a mormon - I believe there is an injuncture to stock a certain amount of food just in case of something or other. Anyway, my bread has recently been failing miserably to rise as it used to do. I have used more water, warmer water, more yeast, less salt. My usual wholewheat recipe calls for two tsp salt and two tsp yeast, and used to be very sensitive to quantities being measured accurately. I am now adding no salt at all and I'm up to three tsp yeast and the bread still doesn't rise very well. I have bought fresh bottles of yeast and kept them in the fridge after opening. I don't think it is the yeast as I can get great dough from the machine using white flour, which I then bake very successfully in the oven. I understand stale flour can do this. I may have bags of flour that might be >4 months old, but less than 6 months. Is this possible? Right now I'm using the machine to make the dough and do the first rising, then doing the rest manually. Given the hours I work, it isn't a practicable solution to say 'do it properly and throw out the machine'. So, can old flour really be responsible for these problems? I don't want to chuck it away unnecessarily, and I assume older agricultural societies would only get flour in their granaries once a year and they managed (but maybe their loves didn't rise so well late in the winter). I used to ask my mother these things and she always knew, but since she's been dead these last two years I'm struggling with stupidly simple questions now and then.

Chris
"Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothèse."
Pierre-Simon de Laplace
User avatar
malocchio
Posts: 1700
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:11 am
Location: richmond calif

Re: Question about possibly stale flour

Post by malocchio »

I recently moved to a very hot,dry place.My flour turned slightly rancid ( organic whole wheat pastry flour ) in no time here.I started to refrigerate it in tightly sealed containers,that cured the problem.Stale flour will affect your loaf,but also,failure to thoroughly sift the flour will as well.Try double sifting ,and add a heaping tablespoon of powdered buttermilk or regular non fat dried milk to fluff up the loaf.Zojirushi has the best motor,but I tossed mine out after the double beaters started to chip off the Teflon in the bucket,and you know where the Teflon flakes end up !
ShadowsDad
Posts: 3121
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:13 am
Location: Central Maine

Re: Question about possibly stale flour

Post by ShadowsDad »

That's the pits.

Chris, a few things to look at...

Let me digress. Modern flour is designed to not spoil after much longer than 6 months, but there are huge differences in flour even if it's fresh. When I use store bought flour, and certain recipes require that I use store bought, I use exclusively King Arthur flour (KAF). It makes a difference and I'm not being a flour snob. KAF is just better flour. OK, so check the flour. Not all flour goes through the QC checks that KAF does, some flour is truly garbage with a brand name on the bag.

Flour for yeast bread must contain gluten and the best ones are upwards of 13% gluten. Quick breads want lower gluten content. You'll never find a gluten percentage on the bag of flour. Just sayin' that if it turns out that the gluten content is low you can use it for quick bread. I make fresh quick bread for breakfast in minutes, anyone has the time for quick bread.

The other thing I'd check is the temperature of the rise. Yeast is killed at 115°F. Dead yeast doesn't do it's job.

In years past the old timers actually didn't stock up on flour because real "whole" wheat spoils readily after grinding and being turned into flour. Todays "whole wheat" isn't anything like real whole wheat. It's had most of what's good and wholesome removed, and only select parts of the wheat added back. That's why I grind my own fresh. But I understand that not everyone wants to do that or has the time. FWIW, I still use commercial flour at times. For some items it simply works better.

OK, want to check the flour? Just go to the supermarket, or have the wife do it, and have her buy a fresh bag of KAF flour and try it. If it was the flour you'll have a good loaf. If it's the same unrisen loaf I'd look where I already pointed to. Also, is the wife stocking bread flour? Maybe she's getting deals on "flour" with no regard to gluten content. Another thing to try is to add "vital gluten" (that's what it's called locally- it's really just gluten) and see if that makes the difference. Of commercial flour bread flour has the highest gluten, and cake flour has the least, general purpose flour is in the middle, but there is no standard except for a general one. That's why I stick with KAF. If you have a commercial bakery near you see if they use KA Sir Lancelot bread flour. It's good stuff.

Assuming the temperature is OK, and the yeast is OK (proof it to check the yeast- put it in tepid water [below a measured 115°F] sugared water and let it sit to check for activity), if all else fails the gluten structure can be strengthened by adding no more than a tsp of ascorbic acid, or vitamin C, to the mix. You'll never taste it.

If none of that helps, get back to me. A PM or e-mail would do if that works better. We'd need to go deeper and I might not even be the right person since I don't use a bread machine. But it's pretty basic. Feed the yeast in an environment conducive to it's growth, allow it gluten for structure and it'll work. Bread is easy. We make it difficult.

Whoa!! Are you adding bran? Bran will destroy the gluten structure. It acts like tiny knives and also has a chemical that impedes gluten structure development. Sorry, but I just thought of that possibility. I grind my wheat 3x specifically to get the bran small enough and I do everything possible to increase gluten structure specifically because of the bran.

Good luck; you'll definitely find the problem, it'll just take time, use scientific method and change just one thing at a time until the culprit is found. You can start with what's easiest for you, probably the flour. If you have a dog they love failed loaves cut into treats and slow baked to make them crunchy. I know that way to get rid of failed loves well. Failed loaves also make good bread crumbs. When diagnosing bread problems the failed loaves can mount up. BTDT. I had to get creative to get rid of mine.

Again, good luck.
Brian

Maker of Kramperts Finest Bay Rum and Frostbite
Or find it here: Italian Barber, West Coast Shaving, Barclay Crocker, The Old Town Shaving Company at Stats, Maggard Razors; Leavitt & Peirce, Harvard Square
User avatar
jww
Woolly Bully
Posts: 10960
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:49 am
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Re: Question about possibly stale flour

Post by jww »

drmoss_ca wrote:... My dear wife has been keeping the 'dry goods' shelves in the basement so well stocked you might think she was a mormon - I believe there is an injuncture to stock a certain amount of food just in case of something or other....
Chris
Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are taught to be self-reliant as much as possible. We indeed often get the sideways look when we discuss how we grind wheat to make our own flour and bread. Our basement has a few hundred pounds of wheat, a stock of other dry goods such as white flour (100% wheat flour will play havoc with your digestive system), white and golden sugar, rice, etc. Our pattern is to cycle through, so we tend to stock what we use (or use what we stock depending on how you look at it). Over time we have been able to reduce our weekly outlay for groceries significantly, and put that money to much better use such as getting rid of debt, saving for that trip to England this fall, etc. :wink:

I know many who have been able to sustain themselves on food storage during bouts of unemployment (been there myself), or disasters such as the ice storm in 1998 where even the cities were hit hard in some areas.

Not sure I'd call it an injuncture ---- more a suggestion that we be self-sufficient. It was far more prominent in the 60s through to the 80s -- we hear less of it specifically now. Nonetheless, it's worked for us and I am not about to change a good thing.

Brian's culinary expertise never ceases to amaze me. I sit in awe and wonder -- seriously.
Wendell

Resident Wool Fat Evangelist & anglophile. Have you hugged a sheep today?
brothers
Posts: 21514
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:18 am
Location: Oklahoma City USA

Re: Question about possibly stale flour

Post by brothers »

jww wrote:. . . I am not about to change a good thing.

Brian's culinary expertise never ceases to amaze me. I sit in awe and wonder -- seriously.
Wendell, your strength of character and self-reliance, as well as Brian's, are inspirational to us all.
Gary

SOTD 99%: Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, soaps & creams, synthetic / badger brushes, Colonial General razor, Kai & Schick blades, straight razors any time, Superior 70 aftershave splash + menthol + 444
ShadowsDad
Posts: 3121
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:13 am
Location: Central Maine

Re: Question about possibly stale flour

Post by ShadowsDad »

Thanks for the kind words Wendell. It was all gathered through the college of hard knocks. OK I read and study a little also.

FWIW, self sufficiency isn't only a Mormon characteristic (we aren't Mormon, just rural). It just makes good sense to be as self sufficient as possible IMO. If one can kill an animal and then turn it into food, or grow the plant and then preserve it it removes the leash that agribusiness has on one. It allows one to make informed choices about ones own body.

Too, anyone would need to be living in a cave to see what happened after hurricane Katrina and not think about "What if that was me?". Or live up here in Maine during the ice storm of '98 when some folks were without power for weeks. We couldn't get out for 5 days, but didn't need to get out either. But rural folks by and large did OK. Rural folks don't run to the store once a day and most of us have larders and the means to keep what we have. An additional benefit to not needing to get to the store every few days is that the emergency services that do exist after a storm are much less stressed if you don't require them. You let the folks who really need them get the services. But back to the ice storm...there were no riots or looting in rural Maine during that time, heck, not even in the towns. Instead of what one saw in New Orleans we had law and order throughout. I never even heard of a case where anyone had to use the means to keep what one has during that entire time. There was a lot of neighbor helping neighbor though; lots if that.

But anyway, it just makes sense to not be connected by an umbilical so that if the source "dies" you have nothing. Even the feds now suggest folks have a stash of food for rough times. Katrina taught the feds that they simply can't be there in the amount needed as soon as it's needed.

We have lots of friends who are largely self sufficient also and I've heard the stories where the larder got them through the hard times. It happens.

Gotta run!
Brian

Maker of Kramperts Finest Bay Rum and Frostbite
Or find it here: Italian Barber, West Coast Shaving, Barclay Crocker, The Old Town Shaving Company at Stats, Maggard Razors; Leavitt & Peirce, Harvard Square
User avatar
drmoss_ca
Admin
Posts: 10731
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:39 pm

Re: Question about possibly stale flour

Post by drmoss_ca »

Thank you for all the detailed replies.

My flour is bread flour and should be high in gluten. The brand is just about the only one in NS supermarkets - Robin Hood. It used to work fine. I think the yeast is OK as it still works when I make ginger beer, and still works when using the Zojirushi to make dough. I think it must either be a stale flour problem or some error has developed with temperatures in the machine when it bakes. I know the white flour rises OK in the machine and bakes in the oven just fine. Since my usual loaf is 1 cup white to 4 cups wholewheat I shall try just making the dough in the machine and oven baking it. If it turns out fine it should be a machine temperature problem, and if it doesn't rise it will be a wholewheat flour problem.

Wendell, I believe your flour might not perform as expected by the time you get to the bottom of the barrel! I have four built in cupboards in the basement from floor to ceiling, filled with shelves. One is full of canned goods, one full of bottled (bought and home bottled) and the other two are the traditional dry goods. Flour, salt, baking powder, corn meal, sugar, milk powder and beans, peas and lentils. Lots of soy beans especially, as I use them to make soy milk. I don't deliberately try to keep a stock for reasons of paranoia, but it certainly feels nice to know the basics are there. When my father retired from civil engineering he became a smallholder up a mountain in Wales (sheep, goats, geese, hens, turkeys and a huge garden. He seemed to measure his happiness in how much hay and animal feed was in the barn, along with however many wheels of homemade cheese he had in the cold room. It must have rubbed off on me.

Chris
"Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothèse."
Pierre-Simon de Laplace
User avatar
jww
Woolly Bully
Posts: 10960
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:49 am
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Re: Question about possibly stale flour

Post by jww »

You mean you are keeping livestock as well as making bread, taking some of the best photos going, and work? Impressive ..... :wink:

The wheat is in air-tight containers and only goes into a smaller container on a rotational basis ... hasn't let us down yet.

Hmmm -- now I have to wait another couple of weeks before my wife can do some bread .... she has this brilliantly simple and wonderfully tasting artisan bread that she makes every now and then ..... perhaps a christening of the new stove after the initial burn-in. Thanks for the idea.
Wendell

Resident Wool Fat Evangelist & anglophile. Have you hugged a sheep today?
ShadowsDad
Posts: 3121
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:13 am
Location: Central Maine

Re: Question about possibly stale flour

Post by ShadowsDad »

Wheat berries store a very long time without spoiling, certainly years if they're kept dry. But once ground it's another story. That's why I only grind what I need for each recipe minutes before I need it. I don't want whole ground wheat flour hanging around.

Chris after all the testing and such, if you still can't find the cause let me know. I'll send you some KA bread flour. It could be a bad batch of flour. It happens. Or find some "vital wheat gluten" and add a few tablespoons per loaf to take the place of the same quantity of flour it displaces, and see if that makes it better. It must be labeled Vital wheat gluten to be sure it hasn't been destroyed by heat in the processing.

Additional "bread brains" can be found here: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/

I've found response times at that site to be slow, but there are folks there who know a lot more about bread than I do. You might even find threads asking about the same problem in the archives.

Wendell, a simple and tasty artisan bread recipe sounds as though it should be posted. :-) Especially if it's from home ground wheat. I'd certainly like to add the recipe to the arsenal.
Brian

Maker of Kramperts Finest Bay Rum and Frostbite
Or find it here: Italian Barber, West Coast Shaving, Barclay Crocker, The Old Town Shaving Company at Stats, Maggard Razors; Leavitt & Peirce, Harvard Square
User avatar
jww
Woolly Bully
Posts: 10960
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:49 am
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Re: Question about possibly stale flour

Post by jww »

Yup. We only grind for each batch. Right now we are watching what we eat and without an oven it's easy half the time and not so easy the rest of the time.
Wendell

Resident Wool Fat Evangelist & anglophile. Have you hugged a sheep today?
ShadowsDad
Posts: 3121
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:13 am
Location: Central Maine

Re: Question about possibly stale flour

Post by ShadowsDad »

:-) Right now I consider us lucky. A Romanian artisanal baker just recently opened up a bread bakery locally and when we get into that town (2x a week) we stop in and buy his bread. It's good stuff and for what he charges I can't make bread that inexpensively, doubly so when I figure my time. It's not sandwich bread, more artisanal, but it's really good and he uses KA Sir Lancelot bread flour which is good stuff. If I used large quantities of commercial flour I'd ask to buy a 50# sack from him, but those days are over for me.

I asked to see the actual bakery, and clearly he has pride in it and rightfully so. Really nice gear; everything from the mixer to the stone lined oven. Nothing I would want or could even make effective use of, but nice equipment for him. It's nice to see that when we get there noonish most of what he has baked is already gone. We want to keep him in business. He's the only commercial baker of real bread in town.

My bread baking has diminished considerably because he's there.
Brian

Maker of Kramperts Finest Bay Rum and Frostbite
Or find it here: Italian Barber, West Coast Shaving, Barclay Crocker, The Old Town Shaving Company at Stats, Maggard Razors; Leavitt & Peirce, Harvard Square
User avatar
Squire
Squadron Leader
Posts: 18932
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:41 pm
Location: North East, MS

Re: Question about possibly stale flour

Post by Squire »

Just the sort of store I would support Brian.
Regards,
Squire
User avatar
jww
Woolly Bully
Posts: 10960
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:49 am
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Re: Question about possibly stale flour

Post by jww »

ShadowsDad wrote:...Wendell, a simple and tasty artisan bread recipe sounds as though it should be posted. :-) Especially if it's from home ground wheat. I'd certainly like to add the recipe to the arsenal.
It doesn't use wheat flour -- although I imagine it could. It is truly as simple as I have ever seen bread making be. She mixes everything in a large mixing bowl, let's it rise, preps and puts it into our 4.5 qt Calphalon pot (without the steamer insert, obviously) and cooks it for something like a couple of hours or something at 450F. This stuff is unbelievably good. You can sprinkle or mix in sunflower seeds, oats, or whatever to give some added texture and real punch to the flavour.

She's incredibly busy at the moment on a contract so we don't see a ton of each other a lot -- but I'll ask her for the recipe and post it as soon as she gets it to me.
Wendell

Resident Wool Fat Evangelist & anglophile. Have you hugged a sheep today?
User avatar
drmoss_ca
Admin
Posts: 10731
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:39 pm

Re: Question about possibly stale flour

Post by drmoss_ca »

My wholewheat bread dough is in the machine and I'll have it in the oven tonight. This is the last bag of the current stock of wholewheat flour, so if I get an answer that tells me it is a flour problem I will do two things: buy flour in smaller sacks, and buy it in a bigger town where the stock on the shelves might turnover more quickly than it does here.

Chris
"Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothèse."
Pierre-Simon de Laplace
ShadowsDad
Posts: 3121
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:13 am
Location: Central Maine

Re: Question about possibly stale flour

Post by ShadowsDad »

Chris, this whole wheat flour, does it contain bran? Have you been using the very same whole wheat flour right along? Or did the problems start with this flour?

I about went nuts when I started grinding my grain because of the bran. My recipes no longer worked. The loaves would rise and just about when they'd risen enough they'd fall. If they survived long enough to go into the oven they'd fall as they baked. For me it was the bran. There are ways to keep the bran there and get along with it.

I know Robin Hood flour; I used it many years ago and it's still in the supermarket we shop in.

But I'll wait for the results of this loaf.
Brian

Maker of Kramperts Finest Bay Rum and Frostbite
Or find it here: Italian Barber, West Coast Shaving, Barclay Crocker, The Old Town Shaving Company at Stats, Maggard Razors; Leavitt & Peirce, Harvard Square
User avatar
jww
Woolly Bully
Posts: 10960
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:49 am
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Re: Question about possibly stale flour

Post by jww »

ShadowsDad wrote:.... Wendell, a simple and tasty artisan bread recipe sounds as though it should be posted. :-) Especially if it's from home ground wheat. I'd certainly like to add the recipe to the arsenal.
Here you go Brian.

It is seriously as good or better than it looks, and easy-peasy to make.

http://www.simplysogood.com/2013/03/art ... bread.html
Wendell

Resident Wool Fat Evangelist & anglophile. Have you hugged a sheep today?
User avatar
drmoss_ca
Admin
Posts: 10731
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:39 pm

Re: Question about possibly stale flour

Post by drmoss_ca »

No added bran beyond that which might remain in the wholewheat flour (but as you say, the meaning of wholewheat has been warped). Same brand all along. The dough has just done its second rising and did expand further and it's now in the oven. Pictures at Ten, as they used to say when I had a television.

Wendell, I think I'll try that recipe at the weekend.

Chris
"Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothèse."
Pierre-Simon de Laplace
User avatar
drmoss_ca
Admin
Posts: 10731
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:39 pm

Re: Question about possibly stale flour

Post by drmoss_ca »

Here they are:

Image

I think the volume of the two loaves is roughly the same as the single loaf that comes out of the machine. I suspect it is a flour problem.

Chris
"Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothèse."
Pierre-Simon de Laplace
ShadowsDad
Posts: 3121
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:13 am
Location: Central Maine

Re: Question about possibly stale flour

Post by ShadowsDad »

It doesn't look like a bran problem. Bran would clearly make it fall, and that isn't what I see. Dead yeast wouldn't rise at all.

Want to try different flour? PM me an address to send it to. Or pick up Vital wheat gluten locally and try again. If that works you absolutely know RH flour screwed something up in the processing. I never heard of stale flour, but I don't live in a humid/hot climate either.

Another source of info is "Bread Beckers". they live in Georgia and would know far more than I do about climate and flour. But they make their flour as required as I do. One never knows what is in the grey matter though.
Brian

Maker of Kramperts Finest Bay Rum and Frostbite
Or find it here: Italian Barber, West Coast Shaving, Barclay Crocker, The Old Town Shaving Company at Stats, Maggard Razors; Leavitt & Peirce, Harvard Square
User avatar
drmoss_ca
Admin
Posts: 10731
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:39 pm

Re: Question about possibly stale flour

Post by drmoss_ca »

Wendell's recipe (see above):

Image

Very easy, but dough has to be left overnight.

Chris
"Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothèse."
Pierre-Simon de Laplace
Post Reply