Question about possibly stale flour

[drmoss_ca]

Big bubbles inside:



But good...

Chris

[ShadowsDad]

Thanks Wendell! I'll give it a try; looks good!

[jww]

But can you think of a simpler bread recepi? And how about the flavour? We all love it.

[ShadowsDad]

The recipe as it is absolutely can't be simpler. It requires pretty much nothing. Just basic stuff. To mix it I didn't even use anything but a beater similar to the one bought from King Arthur and shown in the link. A while back I wanted one to mix my sourdough starter since a whisk just didn't work right, so I built one In the shop from a dried maple branch from the wood pile with the bark removed and 1/8" SS welding wire (318). It cost me the length of welding wire and a bit of epoxy and that's it. I wanted it then, not in a day and after paying more than the store bought beater was worth in shipping. I works much better than any whisk I own for batter, even the whisk I bought specifically for mixing sourdough starter.

As I write, the bread dough is sitting on the countertop and was put together a few hours ago. I'm going to want it for supper tomorrow night for a homemade Taylor Pork Roll sandwich.
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=53332

I just thawed one TPR sausage but had no suitable bread for it last night. But that loaf looks perfectly suitable for what I have in mind.

If it works you just have to know I'm going to convert it to use home ground whole wheat flour. I can't help myself from doing that.

[drmoss_ca]

I hope you'll tell us quantities when you do!

Chris

[ShadowsDad]

I didn't weigh anything this time Chris. I just used the volumetric amounts in the recipe. But even at that, it's pretty easy. If I like it, next time I make it I'll figure out weights.

I'll definitely post the recipe(s) when I finalize changes for myself. But those recipes might or might not work for commercial whole wheat flour.

I also don't plan to use the parchment paper seen in the recipe.

The dough tool I made some time ago. It may look frail, but if I had made it 40 years ago it would have still lasted my entire life. It's fairly rugged.


The whisk part is held in place by holes I drilled in the maple; approx. 1" deep. Not super snug holes, but big enough to allow me to use epoxy in the holes, then as seen, an epoxy cap to close off the end grain.


I bet it didn't take even an hour to make and I had the tool for use that same day. It's not as polished or looking as "store bought" as from KAF but it works fine. Much better than the whisk I bought specifically for dough.

[drmoss_ca]

Well I tried a wholewheat version today. I used:
3 cups wholewheat bread flour (from my non-rising bag)
1 tsp salt (reduced to promote rising)
1 tsp yeast (increased to promote rising)
1¾ cups water (increased as 1½ cups couldn't wet all the wholewheat flour)

and I only left it to rise for six hours. It has come out of the oven and is perfectly edible, but could have expanded a bit more and be a bit less dense. No big bubbles inside as with the white flour version. Next time i need to get it a bit fluffier before going in the oven, so I'm thinking it will be 2 cups water and either less salt or more yeast. Any advice on that, Brian?

Chris

[ShadowsDad]

I made mine today using AP flour and vital wheat gluten.





Chris, if you're going to use a short rise time you're going to need to use more yeast to begin with and a warm area for it to rise in. You'll give up flavor and gluten development and you'll need to knead it. The time it takes to rise (12-18 hours ) is what gives the flavor and the gluten development. Be careful about the water. It needs what it needs, and whole wheat typically needs more, but that water will need to be driven off. Make sure the internal temp' gets to between 200-206°F otherwise you could have a pasty loaf. It will appear to be uncooked inside otherwise. It's OK if the outside is nicely browned. That will give more crust and better flavor.

Next time I plan to use bread flour, then maybe 100% home ground whole wheat. I'll get there in time, but frankly the recipe is awesome! Thanks Wendell!

FWIW, the Primo Grill forum has ben playing with this for the past few years and I'd completely forgotten about it. I did a search for it and found it. One of the things they came up with was the water quantity of 1 1/2 cups. The recipe they posted was the one from the Sullivan bakery or whatever the name of it is. Interesting that the posted link and the results posted on the BBQ forum should agree as to the water. One gent did ad more flour to correct the water (same result).

I also sprayed mine with additional water after it was placed in the hot CI dutch oven. Anyone doing this make sure the sprayer is dedicated to food use (exclusively) from virginity and not used after killing the whiteflies on your indoor plants.

[jww]

Wow. Glad to see such take up and agreement that it couldn't be easier to make, and the flavour is worth the effort (albeit it minimal).

[ShadowsDad]

Wendell, I even did my best to screw the recipe up by misreading the long drawn out written instructions. Long story I won't go into. But I corrected the error and totally deflated the sponge at the last minute and all it had for the final rise was about 45 minutes. It still worked.

My next loaf will be even better. But this one I have no complaints with.

I do have one complaint however... With something in Windows 7, maybe part of IE11. It continually "corrects" words I type. Words such as "been" it corrects to "ben", or "off" to "of". I know I type it correctly, but I go back and it's consistently corrected so as to be incorrect. It's beginning to really piss me off. Is there a way to turn that off? Anyone? (I just found it and turned it of) Ha! gotcha! That one was deliberate.

[jww]

Brian -- I have found any problems with IE are readily fixed by migrating to Chrome ..... and that any problems with Chrome can be fixed by turning to Firefox. IE is the last resort for me ....

I am interested in hearing of more experimentation with the artisan bread recipe so that we can give them a go when our new stove arrives ...... as we are without one for another week and a bit (unless, stock arrives earlier then expected).

[ShadowsDad]

Todays "No-knead Artisan Bread" loaf.


Today I use KA bread flour and I deliberately tried to make a less than pretty loaf by just rudimentarily giving it a roundish shape. It wasn't pretty at all. Plopped it into the dutch oven, sprayed it with water (I know the recipe doesn't say to do that), and finished as per the recipe.

The side showing here is the ugliest side. Too, the bread flour gave it a bit more rise. It had a total rise of about 16 hours.

And sliced.


Next up is homeground whole white wheat. That might require a few more ingredients, but I'll try it as written first, then if I get a failure I'll add the other ingredients.

[drmoss_ca]

Double batch today. Just one tsp salt and a whole tsp yeast.



Chris

[ShadowsDad]

Chris, those appear to be very edible loaves.

[ShadowsDad]

I made a home ground 100% whole white hard wheat loaf today, and the results, as I suspected, were not spectacular. No pix taken deliberately. Not quite a discus and the taste is good, just not what I would call an artisan loaf. I suspect the lack of kneading is the culprit here. Bran destroys the gluten network, and with no kneading little of that network is developed.

But I want to try this at least one more time, maybe more.

[drmoss_ca]

My wholewheat version comes out very homogeneous with small air bubbles throughout, but it is denser that I would like -which is true of every wholewheat loaf I make by any means this last couple of months. The dough rises just as much as the white version, then collapses when you take it out of the bowl to roll in flour and put in the dutch oven. All the same, perfectly edible.

Chris

[dosco]

My wholewheat version comes out very homogeneous with small air bubbles throughout, but it is denser that I would like -which is true of every wholewheat loaf I make by any means this last couple of months. The dough rises just as much as the white version, then collapses when you take it out of the bowl to roll in flour and put in the dutch oven. All the same, perfectly edible.

Chris

There are some pictures on The Fresh Loaf webpage of a WW loaf that has an amazingly light and airy looking crumb. If I can find it I'll post it here.

To help prevent the "deflation while handling" problem you need a floured banneton (woven baskets work as well) ... I don't have one but I use a couple of small cutting boards as "transfer peels" and I simply tilt the board and gently roll the rising loaf onto my oven peel, then slide into the oven on the pizza stone (I don't use a DO yet but am considering it).

Cold or cooler rises help keep the loaf sort of firm which eases handling. I also use rice flour on my transfer peels/boards as it works much much better than wheat flour for this purpose.

Cheers-
Dave

[ShadowsDad]

I think todays loaf is #5 for me. It's easy to make and use this bread it's so good! It doesn't last long in our home. I just hope it doesn't spoil me for "sandwich" bread.

Today I made a few changes that make it even a bit easier to handle, easier to clean up, and gives a hair better oven spring and a more delicate and crispier crust with a hair better crumb. Tonight's loaf is the best yet and the others haven't been shabby.

When I have time I'll try a few more loaves of home ground whole wheat. The first one wasn't what I would call a success. But I suspect I know how to make it work. I'llpost all changes and such when I have something final.

Chris, increasing the yeast and decreasing the salt might shorten the rise time, but you don't want that. Salt is a yeast "poison" and retards the yeast action which is an effect you want. Plus salt adds flavor.

OK, here's what's going on with this loaf... It trades mechanical kneading for time. When flour that contains "gluten" is mixed with water the glutanin and gliadin (I think that's their names) combine to form long chains of protein (gluten). Kneading breaks the chains and aligns them into the gluten structure we need for yeast bread making. Gluten acts like a balloon, holding the CO2 the yeast produces, and allowing the dough to rise. That's a kneaded dough. To allow flavor to develop here most doughs use a biga which is a long fermentation.

The same process happens chemically with the no-knead recipe. The reason it doesn't require kneading is that wheat contains an enzyme that breaks the gluten chains and realigns them during the long fermentation. Waiting allows these naturally occurring chemicals to "knead" the bread for us. The long fermentation develops the flavor of the loaf. Salt adds to that flavor and extends the fermentation while still holding in reserve some yeast action for lift. Time allows the yeast to breed on it's own, and the small amount of yeast we add allows for a long fermentation which is very desirable for flavor as the yeast grows, eats, poops, pees, and makes CO2 in the loaf. (yeah, I know no one reading this will ever look at yeast bread in the same way again. )

So by holding back on the initial yeast shot and adding the called for salt it's actually a good thing. By adding more yeast and cutting the salt it could create problems when the uncontrolled yeast population runs out of food to convert to CO2. It might call for kneading and a shorter fermentation which will affect the flavor, but will result in a loaf with the proper rise. I have recipes that take this to the extreme with a short rise, fine crumb, and mild flavor. They make great sandwich bread and toast. If you want them just say the word. But they require kneading to artificially do what the wheat does naturally if given time. They are very different loaves than what Wendell linked to; completely different character.

[drmoss_ca]

I'm used to using very little salt in general, and found the original recipe with 1¾ tsp salt tasted too salty to me. I have compromised on one tsp which seems to let the bread rise well enough and still not be as bland tasting as a no salt version (which still came out looking fine). I have made about a dozen loaves so far, half white and half wholewheat, and all have been delicious. I'm gonna get fat!

C.

[jww]

Glad to see this baking neophite was able to add some value to more mature and experience bread-making-wet-shavers.

Our new oven is finally due here before the end of the week -- alas, we are going to continue to be away from bread for another couple of weeks, however, I do look forward to seeing what the convection oven does to this recipe.