Rolling My Own

[kingfisher]

Caffeine is definitely a vasoconstrictor. In no way is it a vasodilator. It's always been a vasoconstrictor. That's why they put it into the topical preparations meant to be applied beneath the eyes to fight "bags" under the eyes.

I don't think it's necessary in a shave soap.

[bridger]

not necessary, for sure.

but what if....
some folks shave with cold water. they say it makes the hair follicles stand up. others prefer the feel of hot lather on their skin.
what if caffeine makes the follicles stand up with hot lather?

inquiring minds want to know...

[Squire]

Some minds don't care.

[kingfisher]

not necessary, for sure.

but what if....
some folks shave with cold water. they say it makes the hair follicles stand up. others prefer the feel of hot lather on their skin.
what if caffeine makes the follicles stand up with hot lather?

inquiring minds want to know...

I would think that the purpose of putting caffeine in a shaving soap would be to cut down on swelling of the skin that can occur with excessively hot water; swelling can leave the skin more prone to chafing/mild injury from shaving. So in the same way that cold water might cut down on irritation, caffeine could well do the same thing.

I don't think the benefit (if there is any) of cold water shaving has to do with making hair follicles stand up, I think it has to do with shrinking tissues, which makes them less prone to injury.

[Squire]

Truth is a good technique doesn't require any special elixir and poor technique can't be improved by one.

[bridger]

the making the follicles stand up idea was taken from a user's description of why he prefers cold water shaves. whether it is anatomically correct or not, I think the principle stands.

I just ordered a small amount of caffeine powder. when it comes in I'll try it in a shave or two and report back. I'm not expecting miracle shaves, nor a caffeine buzz. mostly I'm curious.

[Squire]

I'm afraid my follicles are too lazy to stand to attention.

[bridger]

first report on caffeinated shave soap.

the soap was my version of faux MdC. (55% stearic, 45% coconut, via potassium hydroxide). the razor was my very fine Karl Peters Jr. Solingen blade honed to 10k and stropped on linen then scotch shell. the brush was silvertip badger.

the caffeine was anhydrous white powder purchased on eBay. it came in a zip lock baggie looking for all the world like some sort of illicit drug.

I worked up a little lather off of the puck and transferred it to the bowl where I mixed it with the caffeine. I worked the lather a bit more - enough to feel like it was well mixed in. I didn't measure - just a tiny pinch. other than that I tried to do everything the same as always. there is nothing scientific about it... this is all subjective.

the result... I got a nice smooth single pass shave with perhaps slightly less post- shave irritation than usual. but that may be illusory...

I shaved around midnight, right before going to bed. we'll see if I have trouble sleeping.


I can't draw any conclusions from this one shave. I'll be trying different amounts of caffeine in future lathers. so far all I can say is that caffeinated soap isn't necessarily a disaster.

[dosco]

The difficult part will be determining if the caffeine contributed to a 'better shave' than the non-caffeinated lap would have provided.

On a different note, I tried an MdC formulation and hated it...interesting that it works for you. YMMV and all that.

[bridger]

first report on caffeinated shave soap.

no discernible stimulant effects.

[bridger]

The difficult part will be determining if the caffeine contributed to a 'better shave' than the non-caffeinated lap would have provided.

On a different note, I tried an MdC formulation and hated it...interesting that it works for you. YMMV and all that.

I'm not sure how to approach rigorous testing. I'll play with amounts for a while, then probably shave one side with and one side without. if there is a discernible effect, that should make it clear. if there is no discernible effect, I'll consider caffeinated shave soaps to be a dead end.


what didn't work for you with the MdC formulation, and what do you use?

[Squire]

Come to think of it all my morning shaves are caffeinated I just don't put it on my face.

[dosco]

what didn't work for you with the MdC formulation, and what do you use?

I presume you've read my posts on this thread with regards to my homebrew shave soap?

Based on comments about 'the awesomeness of MdC,' I made an MdC-like formulation of stearic soap and coconut soap (my formulation, results, and pictures of the lather are on this thread). I found that the lather from this soap irritated my skin, and it didn't seem to provide any worthwhile cushioning. I assume the irritation was a result of the high percentage of coconut soap (which is known to by drying/irritating).

IIRC my daily shave soap is my "r3" formulation which is a rebatched combination of stearic soap, tallow soap, coconut soap, and castor oil soap. All were superfatted to 3%, and made with potassium hydroxide. No scent.

Last month I exclusively used Chris Moss' homebrew shave soap ... I traveled extensively last month to Boston, Los Angeles, Minneapolis, Chicago, Salt Lake City, and Long Island (NY). (edit) i enjoyed it immensely, and found it to be better than any of the products i previously used. (end edit) Since returning from travel and a short vacation I've returned to my "r3" formulation on a daily basis.

[bridger]

I shaved a second time with caffeine powder added to the lather, but this time I used a lot more. I don't have a convenient way to measure milligrams so I used the tip of my straight razor to scoop a bit out and dump it in the bowl. the pile of powder was about the size of a pea, probably the equivalent of a dozen cups of coffee or so at 95 mg. per cup of coffee. I shaved about 7:00 PM or so, and I'd say I did see a small stimulant effect- we stayed up and watched a movie which I had no problem staying alert for. it was a pretty engaging piece though, and I didn't really have trouble sleeping after that, so not sure I can attribute any stimulant effect to the shave.

as far as the effects of the caffeine on the shave, again nothing dramatic. I nicked myself a little on my chin and it barely bled- I'd say less than I'd think it would have normally- but again subjectivity is an obstacle to hard data. I didn't use any pre or post shave products per usual and had very little irritation, but again no dramatic changes.

I can try upping the amounts again. at some point I'll run into the undesirable effects, whatever those are. it doesn't look like overdosing on caffeine is likely by adding it to shaving lather, and the trend seems to be away from skin irritation which seems a bit counterintuitive to me, but consistent with some comments elsewhere. since the application only lasts for a few minutes and is washed off it seems to me that it would be difficult to get into real trouble with this, but I am not a medically trained person. I suppose at some level there may be an effect where there is a loss of circulation in the skin, which could cause problems. I'll be watching out for something like that. if there is a stimulant effect similar to drinking coffee it is very slight, but in theory that could come into play at high quantities. I certainly won't be giving up my morning cup of coffee for caffeinated shave soap. however, if it proves to allow a closer shave with no negative effects it might get included in my rotation.

[bridger]

what didn't work for you with the MdC formulation, and what do you use?

I presume you've read my posts on this thread with regards to my homebrew shave soap?

Based on comments about 'the awesomeness of MdC,' I made an MdC-like formulation of stearic soap and coconut soap (my formulation, results, and pictures of the lather are on this thread). If found that the lather from this soap irritated my skin, and it didn't seem to provide any worthwhile cushioning. I assume the irritation was a result of the high percentage of coconut soap (which is known to by drying/irritating).

IIRC my daily shave soap is my "r3" formulation which is a rebatched combination of stearic soap, tallow soap, coconut soap, and castor oil soap. All were superfatted to 3%, and made with potassium hydroxide. No scent.

Last month I exclusively used Chris Moss' homebrew shave soap ... I traveled extensively last month to Boston, Los Angeles, Minneapolis, Chicago, Salt Lake City, and Long Island (NY). Since returning from travel and a short vacation I've returned to my "r3" formulation on a daily basis.

thanks for the bump to go re-read the entire thread. I am also intrigued by the soapcalc numbers for castor oil. if you don't mind a summary and recap, what recipe or recipes are turning out to be the winners for you, or is the jury not yet out? if the r3 is it can you estimate the percentages for us?

[drmoss_ca]

My final version is this:
Lard 46%
Stearic Acid 30%
Coconut Oil (76º) 15%
Castor Oil 7%
Lanolin 2%

and 50% NaOH and 50% KOH, using the amount of water recommended by soap calc for that combination. Then I add the gardenia scent oil, using around 20ml for 2kg of soap.

Now, not blowing my own horn, as I firmly believe that if I could do this in a handful of batches, someone else might do far better with more in depth experimentation, I haven't used anything else since I made it. It works better than all the ~100 soaps I have on the Shelves of Shame. I understand this adds another and more cogent reason why they should be named that way. I may be selling them, and presumably only to those not willing to do some basic chemistry at home. This soap provides thick, protective lather in profusion (even with my hard water) and a tolerable scent that might make a user believe I meant it to smell like that. I'm done with buying soaps and creams. This works.

Chris
And I'm saving bacon and beefburger fat for the next batch to replace some of the lard.

[Squire]

I expect that bacon comment will set the hook in some of our members. Ape you up yet? I know it's Saturday morning.

[bridger]

My final version is this:
Lard 46%
Stearic Acid 30%
Coconut Oil (76º) 15%
Castor Oil 7%
Lanolin 2%

and 50% NaOH and 50% KOH, using the amount of water recommended by soap calc for that combination. Then I add the gardenia scent oil, using around 20ml for 2kg of soap.

Now, not blowing my own horn, as I firmly believe that if I could do this in a handful of batches, someone else might do far better with more in depth experimentation, I haven't used anything else since I made it. It works better than all the ~100 soaps I have on the Shelves of Shame. I understand this adds another and more cogent reason why they should be named that way. I may be selling them, and presumably only to those not willing to do some basic chemistry at home. This soap provides thick, protective lather in profusion (even with my hard water) and a tolerable scent that might make a user believe I meant it to smell like that. I'm done with buying soaps and creams. This works.

Chris
And I'm saving bacon and beefburger fat for the next batch to replace some of the lard.

what % super fat do you make that at, and have you tried variations of that percentage, and with what result? I understand the theory of superfatting and that at too high a percentage of free oils it reduces latherability, but I don't have enough experience to make the call.


I suspect that you will have no trouble finding a taker for a wide selection of branded shave soaps at a decent price. it's not just about willingness to do home chemistry...

I think that bacon grease is the same thing as lard, no?

[Squire]

I think he was kidding about the bacon grease as it is rather strongly scented.

[drmoss_ca]

what % super fat do you make that at, and have you tried variations of that percentage, and with what result?

5% and haven't seen any need to vary from it.

I think that bacon grease is the same thing as lard, no?

Different part of the pig, and rendered so it is scentless. Squire just hopes I'm joking - he knows as well as I do that bacon grease soap would be nearly perfect for a southern gentleman. Just needs a sprinkle of cornmeal in there somewhere. That's the bit I'm still working on....

Chris