Rolling My Own

[rsp1202]

Yeah, I like the cooking stuff as much as the soap-making. We're B&B: Beard & Bread.

[drmoss_ca]

You might want to rephrase that (!)

Chris

[rsp1202]

I should wash my mouth out with soap.

[drmoss_ca]

An extreme version of the taste test for full saponification!

C.

[TRBeck]

Chris, a couple of things. I have little experience with castor oil beyond the first shave recipe and some bath soap (makes a lovely addition to a soap bar for my 1-year-old girl), but the recipe looks very nice. 10% coconut oil is enought for some fluff in the lather on its own, which the castor oil will enhance. Likewise, I think the stearates there would yield a creamy lather even without castor. This may be a situation where minimizing materials and suppliers to minimize cost has created a tradition regarding soap recipes. Castor oil may yield softer soap, may inhibit shelf life, and multiplies the complexities of manufacturing, but for home use, big deal (and I don't think it automatically shortens shelf life. I imagine much depends on how it's handled). I think after nailing down my stearic/tallow/coconut use, a small castor oil addition may be a lovely skin and lather boost. That's why I was running numbers as mentioned above. My recipe, which I put together Sunday night, has tallow instead of lard and the ratio of tallow and stearic acid is flipped, but otherwise, it's identical. Weekend after next sounds like a good time for Chris and I to make this recipe and compare notes. What do you think, Chris? Anyone else getting in on this?

Also, about scent. I started with 15mL lavender oil per 250g soap. This yields an understated but clear lavender note. Some oils are more potent, others less, and some have skin irritant potential and so must be adjusted up or down, but citrus oils are particularly volatile and may require more volume or some fixatives or substitutes to work in a soap. Lemongrass, for instance, holds up well, better than lemon oil and works to boost the citrus. This is because it also has huge amounts of citral, a common skin irritant. .5 oz. in a 250g batch smells great but irritates my skin a bit. After researching, I'll probably use lemon verbena to boost the lemon aspect of lemongrass next time I use it and dial down the volume a bit. For those so inclined, four drops of patchouli oil in a 500g batch of soap (in which there was also an ounce of lavender oil and 1/4 oz. rosewater concentrate) comes through nicely as a clear supporting note. Scenting this stuff properly can require some careful planning, and reading a bit on perfumery and/or aromatherapy doesn't hurt. Again, another rabbit hole. On the other hand, you'll have a lovely shave with nothing but lavender oil, and if you're fond of that scent, there's probably no reason to drive yourself mad. I have chosen the path of madness.

[drmoss_ca]

I'm game, barring sudden demands for other duties or hospital disasters. I'll do a smaller batch this time, though if it doesn't shave well I can repurpose it as bath soap. My soft soap is soft enough that you couldn't use it that way. This morning I followed the old Palmolive tube's advice: wash, rinse, reapply soap (using Williams for this) then apply lather. It lasted for the whole pass.

Chris

[TRBeck]

Glad you were able to use your homemade soap for a whole shave. A very satisfying experience, no?

Of course I understand if other sudden demands intercede. I've got a couple of slightly variant batches lined up for this week and weekend, and then I intend to start introducing castor oil a bit at a time into established recipes. By next weekend, I should be ready to go for a big 10% hit of the stuff.

[dosco]

Have any of you tried adding tragacanth gum to your shave soap formulations?

It is listed in the "American Soaps" book, specifically it is mentioned in the "shave soap" section towards the end of the book.

The stuff is still available and is not all that expensive.

I'm getting close to pulling the trigger on oredering some KOH and stearic acid, and I'm tempted to order some tragacanth as well.

[TRBeck]

I have not used tragacanth gum. From what I understand it would have been used as a stabilizer and thickener for lather; hence its appearance in shave soap. 1893 is immediately prior to the discovery of hydrogenation and therefore precedes a time when stearic acid would have been available in significant quantity without tagalongs like oleic acid in lard and tallow. Stearic acid as a commodity was not really an option. So, my guess is it was mostly there to keep the lather from crisping/drying/fizzing during shaving.

However, I believe it also has some anti-inflammatory effect, so it could have served a secondary purpose in a shave soap, too. Definitely merits some experimentation. Let us know if you order some. I'm intrigued.

[CMur12]

If you'll all forgive a minor hijack here, I remember tragacanth as one of the ingredients in the original Corn Husker's Lotion, when it came out in the mid-1960s. (I remember marveling over the word as I tried to figure out how one might pronounce it gracefully.) The original lotion had a slightly gelatinous quality to it that I missed in subsequent formulations. (Ah yes, Corn Husker's Lotion has certainly seen reformulation, too.)

- Murray

[TRBeck]

Not a hijack at all Murray. I think a lot of old soap recipes indicate that soap makers were trying to do a lot with one product, e.g. putting soothing ingredients in a shave soap. Kind of a contrast to the contemporary trend of separate products to cleanse, shave, rinse, soothe, moisturize, and then dry out again (i.e. astringents).
Andrew (drumana) used Cornhusker's as aftershave for quite a while. Miss Andrew, btw. Anyway, interesting to know that it is not immune to reformulation, and it makes me wonder why tragacanth was eliminated as an ingredient and brings us full circle to lesser versions of the things we used to love. Someone needs to make some Cornhusker's.

I do wonder now whether tragacanth might serve a similar purpose to the mineral oil (paraffinum liqiuidum) in the old T&H formulation, or for that matter the petrolatum in Harris and Valobra hard soaps, stabilizing the moisture level of the lather.

[dosco]

I do wonder now whether tragacanth might serve a similar purpose to the mineral oil (paraffinum liqiuidum) in the old T&H formulation, or for that matter the petrolatum in Harris and Valobra hard soaps, stabilizing the moisture level of the lather.

A point of order, if you recall from your homebrewing efforts, if one wear lip balm and drinks from a beer with a frothy head, the froth is "killed" by the lip balm.

It would stand to reason that any unsaponified oils in a shave soap would destabilize or kill any lather "froth."

I would think that tragacanth and other polysaccharide gums would not have the lather-killing properties of oils, and thus may provide a beneficial effect to lather formation.

Or not.

If I get some I was planning to dry-mill it into a puck using the food processor a la the link I posted earlier.

FWIW I tried the food processor as a milling device and it mostly worked, I ground up 1/2 a bar of Ivory and 1/2 a bar of Williams and formed a hybrid puck. The mass didn't get hot enough (from only the grinding/milling action of the processor) to fuse into a lump, so I used the microwave which worked quite well. The final result was a "loser" from the shaving standpoint (the lather was weaksauce), however I think it validated the approach quite well.

On a related side note, I am beginning to wonder if the primary ingredient of both Ivory and Williams is in fact coconut oil with the second ingredient being tallow. The frothy, short-lived nature of the lather from the Ivory-Williams mutant was less than spectacular from what are theoretically 2 tallow-based formulations (and not really any different than Williams all by itself).

[CMur12]

Tim, I miss Andrew/drumana, too.

I'm sure I've read on this forum that Corn Husker's Lotion is very similar in formulation to Trumper's Skin Food, and much less expensive. I think that bit of information encouraged some of our members to try the former as an aftershave. (In fact, I might give that a try, myself.)

- Murray

[TRBeck]

I do wonder now whether tragacanth might serve a similar purpose to the mineral oil (paraffinum liqiuidum) in the old T&H formulation, or for that matter the petrolatum in Harris and Valobra hard soaps, stabilizing the moisture level of the lather.

A point of order, if you recall from your homebrewing efforts, if one wear lip balm and drinks from a beer with a frothy head, the froth is "killed" by the lip balm.

It would stand to reason that any unsaponified oils in a shave soap would destabilize or kill any lather "froth."

I would think that tragacanth and other polysaccharide gums would not have the lather-killing properties of oils, and thus may provide a beneficial effect to lather formation.

Or not.

If I get some I was planning to dry-mill it into a puck using the food processor a la the link I posted earlier.

Dave, yeah, unsaponified oils are not good for lather, generally, but they're good for skin and act as humectants, so they would hurt lather in terms of surface tension but help in terms of moisture content. Mineral oil and petrolatum, as unsaponifiables, are a bit like lanolin in this case (but my skin can handle them).
I'm not sure how much superfat one can get away with before lather is hurt, but I believe with as much stearic as we're talking about 3-5% should be fine, and maybe more. Superfatting/lye discounting is not mentioned in old soap formulations, probably due to the fact that lye was not as pure as what we can obtain now and therefore superfatting was something of a hit-or-miss affair anyway. It happend on its own. Or you had alkali leftover. Anyway, tragacanth is a way to get around the potentially drying effect of a soap (especially one with lots of coconut oil) that doesn't have unsaponified fats in it. The mineral oil and petrolatum in those soaps I mentioned can't be much, but I can't imagine what else it's there for if not to keep moisture in the lather and perhaps leave the skin feeling good. It's a weird addition to soap, IMO (and, btw, one I haven't found necessary on the home soaping scale), especially shave soap, wherein lather stability is of utmost importance.

Murray, I remember the Skin Food connection, too. I'll pick up some Cornhusker's on the way home. Maybe I can make a nice skin food/balm to accompany the soap.

Wait until the tragacanth gum shows up at the house. My wife is very understanding and loves the soapmaking thing, but if I start spinning a tale about 19th century soap texts, even she might have to give me up for lost.

[drmoss_ca]

I'm away from home and can't check, but isn't there a gum in Trumper's Skin Food? Is that tragacanth, or gum Arabic? When I get home I might find a little dab of Skin Food on my soft soap stabilizes the lather! it was used this way on less luxurious soaps like Williams by some members in the past. BTW, I am not unaware of the sad reflection on the quality of my first soap when I can improve it with an admixture of William's!

Chris

[TRBeck]

Chris, I believe it's tragacanth, unless someone has a more up-to-date ingredient list than this:

Gum Tragacanth No 1; Rose Water; Glycerin BP; Menthol Crystals BP; Nipagin; Fragrance; Citronellol; Geraniol; Linalool; Citral; Limonene; Colour; Demineralized Water

[dosco]

Anybody make any soap over the weekend?

If so ... results?

[TRBeck]

Dave, I didn't, and I know the batch and I Chris discussed upthread will get made next weekend. I do have a batch lined up tonight that will be a variation of one of the sample batches I sent out to a few gents here. Where things stand for me right now:

1. I am getting some feedback (mostly positive) from some of the members who have samples of my homemade soap. I'll let them speak up when they're ready and/or when everyone has had ample time to test these out. I have been using batch "A" and "B" for the past two weeks - I sent out three different recipes - and enjoying my shaves thoroughly.

2. I also sent out a fourth batch to another member, a slightly different formula, and received good feedback on that one, too, which I will share when the time is right.

3. I believe scent is a trickier thing than I would've thought even a few days ago. The scents in my soaps are not as strong or durable as I thought, and some have faded a good deal in a short time. I'm told clay actually makes a good anchor for scents. I would prefer not to use clay as some guys' skin is sensitive to it, and I want to keep my ingredients minimal. Citrus oils in particular fade fast. The batch I sent to one member was a bergamot-vetiver scent. When I made it, I kept the vetiver dialed way back and bergamot was pushed forward. Even still, the bergamot is mostly gone and now it's just a weak vetiver scent. There are topnotes that last, such as lemongrass, but they are often pretty packed with potential irritants (such as citral in the case of lemongrass). I would prefer EOs to fragrance oils, but synthetics aren't automatically bad, and there are some scents that are almost impossible to get with EO. Lots of experimentation to do here.

4. If you get your stearic content over 50%, your lather should have good stability and protect well. Too much coconut oil may begin to interfere, resulting in unnecessarily bubbly/fluffy lather that, while it looks good, actually doesn't protect superbly. However, it's hard to quantify how much is too much, since a soap higher in stearates will tolerate more lauric/myristic acid.

5. Glycerin is a bit of a mystery. General consensus among soap forumites is to add 10% per pound of oils, which is what I've been doing. However, glycerin can help lather up to a point, after which it actually hinders lather formation and stability. Its hygroscopic nature means that it can actually irritate the skin in too high a concentration. Every lipid will separate into soap and glycerin when it encounters a caustic. The amount of glycerin depends on the fatty acid makeup of the lipid, but it is generally 7-13% of the total weight of the lipid. I think I said before that pure stearic acid will not produce glycerin when saponified, but I think I was mistaken. Regardless, it will not produce as much as a soap with a mixture of fatty acids, as glycerin is most abundant where lauric acid is abundant. So coconut oil yields a lot of glycerin when saponified. It is virtually impossible to determine how much glycerin is in a finished soap without lab equipment, though knowledge of the amounts of each lipid in the soap will allow for a good estimate. Anyway, I think the addition of glycerin might be helpful for home soapers who aren't using a formula that is geared to lather formation and only lather formation. But I'm not sure it's useful for what I'm after. I will continue adding glycerin, but I plan to play around with the percentage. Chris (El Alamein) has said that soaps with too much additional glycerin cause his skin problems, and this makes sense. Since glycerin is hygroscopic, it will draw moisture from wherever it can, and this includes the skin in the absence of other options.

6. The number of variables in process is staggering. When to add glycerin, how much water to use, when to add fragrance, the temperature at which one soaps/hot processes, etc... even if you figure out ingredients, much like homebrewing, the variables in process can dramatically alter a batch.

7. Speaking of homebrewing, the notion of superfatting shave soap puts me in mind of brewing oatmeal stout. Oats add silky mouthfeel, slight sweetness, and body to a stout. They can also help with head retention due to their protein content. Unfortunately, oats are also higher in fat than most grains, and the oils therein can interfere with head retention. While this mostly matters aesthetically and not functonally in beer, I prefer a good, sturdy head on my oatmeal stouts, and the trick as I recall was to find a way to introduce enough oats for body and mouthfeel without killing the resulting head on the beer. Similarly, I want to find out how and how much to superfat (and what fat to use) to get a good post-shave effect without killing the stability of the lather.

[rsp1202]

I'll post a quick note on Tim's soaps since I've been using nothing but for the last couple weeks. All have a nice but subdued lavender scent. Since this aspect of the soap experiment is particularly touchy and far from the final word, scent-sensitive me says it can be dialed-up a notch or two and it would still probably be pretty okay.

I've picked Tim's soap sample "A" from his first batch as my favorite so far because of it's combination of lathering, protection and after-shave face feel. It doesn't take very long to bring it to full lather, and I get a thick and slick coating without bubbles. Goosing the rich super-lather from the brush's core is especially rewarding.

Nothing's perfect, but whatever small issues I've had have everything to do with breaking in a new brush and new soap at the same time. I'm 99% of the way toward figuring out the correct water-to-soap ratio. Of course I'd like to try some other soaps as a comparison -- including this manufacturer's next batch -- but I could easily live long-term with "A" since it lathers-up nicely, cuts cleanly, and leaves a wonderful after-shave feel.

Listen, if it makes a Mach3 shave feel okay then Tim is doing something right.

[drmoss_ca]

Next weekend is S-Day. I've just got back from a long weekend in Toronto and three operas.

Chris