milling and moisture

[nicodemus38]

part of the reason for triple milling soap is to remove the moisture and part of the moisture is glycerin. I have seen some triple milled soaps that have glycerin added during the final phase. Is that killing the purpose

[drmoss_ca]

Not if the desired result is a hard soap that doesn't turn to mush when it gets wet. My homemade bath soap has to be placed where it will dry after use (I use an up-turned surgical scrub brush in the soap dish to let air circulate around it) or it will soften and disappear quickly. I don't have the option of milling and drying and reforming it, and like the one thing softer soaps are good at; lots of soap deposition when used. It's also highly superfatted and that contributes to the softness.

Chris

[nicodemus38]

that's why I had to ask, the soap was listed as triple milled and long lasting. It wasn't listed as a byproduct of soap making but as a separate added ingredient.

[notthesharpest]

I'm confused now.

Does adding glycerine noticeably decrease the longevity of the finished bar of soap, or not?

[Squire]

Oh Good Lord, at my age I'm happy to just outlive the bar of soap.

[eyebright]

Milling doesn't remove glycerin. The kind of soap that is used for milling is industrially made "continuous process" soap from which the glycerin has already been removed and sold to the pharmaceutical/cosmetic industries as a byproduct. The soap to be milled is dried to between 13% and 18% humidity, ground and mixed with the fragrances, color and additives before being extruded and pressed into hard bars. But some glycerin is desirable in soap so if a formula includes a small percentage of glycerin added back in, it's done to make it gentler on the skin.

Handmade soap has more glycerin in it because none is taken out, but it can't be milled because a lot of glycerin will gum up the milling equipment.

[nicodemus38]

most of the triple milled soaps from England do not have glycerin on the label , either as an additive or as a byproduct of the soap making process.

My question is, that even though any soap besides glycerin soaps can be milled as many times and desired, that the makers start out with good recipes, then why would they HAVE to add glycerin?

Example MWF doesn't need any added glycerin, but if they did it would be pointless as it wouldn't improve anything.

[CMur12]

most of the triple milled soaps from England do not have glycerin on the label , either as an additive or as a byproduct of the soap making process.

My question is, that even though any soap besides glycerin soaps can be milled as many times and desired, that the makers start out with good recipes, then why would they HAVE to add glycerin?

Example MWF doesn't need any added glycerin, but if they did it would be pointless as it wouldn't improve anything.

This statement makes no sense. Since when can you decide if a product would benefit or not from glycerin? Eyebright explained why glycerin is desirable in a soap. If a manufacturer decided to retain or add glycerin to their soap, it would be because testing convinced them that it improved the product in ways important to the company.

In the case of MWF, I don't know if it has glycerin in it, or not. It isn't a milled soap, at any rate, so it wouldn't be an issue in its manufacture.

- Murray

[eyebright]

The term "glycerin soaps" is confusing, Nic. Most people would think of either transparent soaps like Pear's and Musgo Real or melt & pour soaps like Mama Bear's. But all soap that's made of saponified oils contain glycerin unless it's been removed: they aren't "glycerin soaps" like the aforementioned ones, but you can't mill them either. I'm not trying to be argumentative here, just trying to get on the same page with definitions. Glycerin can be present in a soap without being listed on the label: if the glycerin is produced as a result of saponifying oils it's not an ingredient, it's just a natural component of soap. Of course, if extra glycerin is added then it would be listed as an ingredient.

[Squire]

Unicorn milk, that's what I want to see in there. Make 'em prove I didn't use it.

[brothers]

The term "glycerin soaps" is confusing, Nic. Most people would think of either transparent soaps like Pear's and Musgo Real or melt & pour soaps like Mama Bear's. But all soap that's made of saponified oils contain glycerin unless it's been removed: they aren't "glycerin soaps" like the aforementioned ones, but you can't mill them either. I'm not trying to be argumentative here, just trying to get on the same page with definitions. Glycerin can be present in a soap without being listed on the label: if the glycerin is produced as a result of saponifying oils it's not an ingredient, it's just a natural component of soap. Of course, if extra glycerin is added then it would be listed as an ingredient.

A soapmaker speaking from experience with authority. Thanks!

[nicodemus38]

the new American ingredient listings allow each by product of saponification to be listed as an item in the ingredient list if desired.

[eyebright]

"if desired", not obligatory. Both ways are correct, to list the ingredients that go into the product (tallow, coconut oil, sodium hydroxide, etc) or the result of the reaction (sodium tallowate, sodium cocoate, glycerin, etc.) I prefer the first method as I find it more straightforward but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

[dosco]

My question is, that even though any soap besides glycerin soaps can be milled as many times and desired, that the makers start out with good recipes, then why would they HAVE to add glycerin?

You mentioned in another thread that you've made soap. So I'm going to assume that you understand eyebright's comment that in industrial production the glycerine - a natural byproduct of the first stage of saponification - has been completely and utterly removed from the soap(?).

The other bit about "good recipes" ... on an industrial scale, the "goodness" of the recipe may have more to do with economy of scale (cost), useful byproducts (i.e. glycerine), and profit. So a "good recipe" that you make at home may not be "good" when produced on a very large scale.

As far as "why add it back" I think there is some agreement that it 1) improves latherability (within limits), 2) improves skin protection, and 3) contributes to better overall skin feel.

-Dave

[Ouchmychin]

Frankly, I prefer a softer soap because I use a washcloth in my shower and softer means more giving; less rubbing of the bar on the washcloth before scrubbing. I rub the bar all over and then work up a lather before I bathe. Softer takes less time. An example is Yardley soap versus Dove.