palm oil

[nicodemus38]

It was posited on another forum, that the use of palm oil in shaving soaps, is deforesting the rain forest and leaving baby monkeys of some sort, running around homeless.

But why blame shaving soap for that when so many other commercial products use palm oil?

[CMur12]

Much of the massive deforestation is taking place in Indonesia. Orangutans and other wildlife are rapidly losing habitat.

In concept (and in practice) the purchase of most products containing palm oil perpetuates the deforestation. I believe some palm oil is not associated with deforestation, but I don't know what terminology one would search for on a label to show this.

- Murray

[nicodemus38]

I don't see how shave soap can be the culprit some would posit. Palmolive cant make enough soap in a century to cause the deforastion. And I know I see palm wood in residential items.

[CMur12]

All the little bits add up.

Each person makes his or her decision based upon his or her own conscience.

- Murray

[ask4Edge]

Orangutans are native to Indonesia, Malaysia, and Africa, but not South America - where palm oil is also harvested.

I came across this interesting article, although I can't confirm its credibility (or lack thereof): http://ensia.com/features/can-latin-ame ... oil-right/

[CMur12]

Right, but every jungle harbors wildlife. In South American jungles, there are many kinds of monkeys, birds, jaguars, tapirs, etc. The Amazon jungle is being razed at an alarming rate for a multitude of profit-related interests.

- Murray

[ask4Edge]

Murray, it's my understanding that - in some South American countries (e.g.: Ecuador) - there are (artificial) palm plantations devoid of mammals. Is that not the case?

[nicodemus38]

back in 2006 the main deforestation of south America was due to corn crops for ethanol production. Back then it was calculated one tank of ethanol gas for an SUV used the same amount of corn a person would eat in 6 months.

Now its the big deforestation to grow palm oil. And looking at it, the food, actual eatables, and makeup is the main bulk usage for palm oil. Not our soap.

[brothers]

That sounds good to me. There is one manufacturer who claims that using palm wood is a good thing because it is similar to bamboo, i.e. a resource that is renewable. I have no reason to dispute that, except if it is renewable, then who the heck would complain that it is an abuse of a natural resource to use palm oil? Seems to be a conflict somewhere there.

[CMur12]

Gary, the fact that palm trees are a renewable resource isn't the issue. The problem is that natural jungles are being destroyed to plant palm trees in their place. The palm trees don't function as habitat for the wildlife that is displaced. The topsoil in a jungle is very shallow and it is sustained by the very delicate balance of jungle growth. Plants and animals play critical rolls in this balance. When the jungle is cleared and agriculture of any kind is implemented to exploit the topsoil, that topsoil is quickly depleted. Once that topsoil is depleted and/or cleared off, the jungle can't reclaim it. The destruction is permanent.

- Murray

[brothers]

Thanks Murray. Now I understand. As a mere potential consumer I literally have no actual influence or impact on the issue.

[ask4Edge]

Are there no naturally clear/open terrains (versus deforested jungle) available for planting trees?

[BPman]

Gary, the fact that palm trees are a renewable resource isn't the issue. The problem is that natural jungles are being destroyed to plant palm trees in their place. The palm trees don't function as habitat for the wildlife that is displaced. The topsoil in a jungle is very shallow and it is sustained by the very delicate balance of jungle growth. Plants and animals play critical rolls in this balance. When the jungle is cleared and agriculture of any kind is implemented to exploit the topsoil, that topsoil is quickly depleted. Once that topsoil is depleted and/or cleared off, the jungle can't reclaim it. The destruction is permanent.

- Murray

And what would the USA have said in 1875 had Brazil said "Stop killing the buffalo!" ? We'd have told them to pound sand & mind their own country. Whether we like it or not, they have the right to destroy their own country despite whatever economic and geographical havoc it may wreak. That's life.

[CMur12]

Gary, the fact that palm trees are a renewable resource isn't the issue. The problem is that natural jungles are being destroyed to plant palm trees in their place. The palm trees don't function as habitat for the wildlife that is displaced. The topsoil in a jungle is very shallow and it is sustained by the very delicate balance of jungle growth. Plants and animals play critical rolls in this balance. When the jungle is cleared and agriculture of any kind is implemented to exploit the topsoil, that topsoil is quickly depleted. Once that topsoil is depleted and/or cleared off, the jungle can't reclaim it. The destruction is permanent.

- Murray

And what would the USA have said in 1875 had Brazil said "Stop killing the buffalo!" ? We'd have told them to pound sand & mind their own country. Whether we like it or not, they have the right to destroy their own country despite whatever economic and geographical havoc it may wreak. That's life.

Of course they have that right. And we have the right to support it or not.

It's not possible to entirely boycott products with palm oil and I don't even try to accomplish that. Where I have a choice between products, however, environmental harm is one of the considerations in my decision.

- Murray

[Squire]

I have to agree with Murray. Having spent some time in triple canopy rain forests and being familiar with the incredible diversity of plant and animal life unique to that environment, I am utterly opposed to destruction for something as mindlessly short sighted as single crop agricultural use.

[Ouchmychin]

I thought the main destructive force now was the use of tropical hardwoods in home construction (hardwood floors/decks).

[brothers]

I'm going to go check my soaps and creams to see if any of them list palm oil. It shouldn't take long.
Edit, I'm back, didn't find any, but if anyone knows of any specific brands among the popularly discussed products that do, please let me know. I figure specificity is pretty much a basic requirement when one begins to single out the wrongdoers. Example: when I made my own shaving soap I did not use any palm oil.

[CMur12]

I thought the main destructive force now was the use of tropical hardwoods in home construction (hardwood floors/decks).

That may be, Pete. I don't know which is more destructive, but they are both significantly destructive.

- Murray

[BPman]

Too many people, from the luxury of their First World comfortable life, don't understand that in the Third World there are no 'limousine Liberal' gov't programs to help people. It's a 'dog eat dog' subsistence. I lived for a year in one of the most hostile & violent countries in South America and it was enlightening to say the least. Pay is next to nothing & expenses are in many cases what they are here. Much of the deforestation is done by rural agrarian types trying to eke out an existence as well as those mining the frontier. This is exactly what transpired in the USA in the 1800's. These gov'ts are corrupt and there are no means to simply give these people other jobs just as we cannot even do this here in our own country. This is just a step in their evolutionary growth and it will only stop when they decide to stop it.

Besides, last time I watched TV we have too many BIG problems of our own here in the USA to worry about that culminate this coming Nov.

[CMur12]

I'm familiar with the situation, BPman. I lived for a couple of years in Brazil, primarily 2000 miles up the Amazon River in a rustic little house on stilts, on the border between Brazil, Columbia, and Peru. It was admittedly some time ago. More recently, huge lumber companies in Indonesia wrought massive deforestation on an industrial level in Indonesia. Those companies have been operating in the Amazon rain forest, as well. This is happening largely because export markets make it profitable. The export market will justify, or not, the large scale deforestation, in contrast to lesser deforestation by subsistence farmers and local mining interests.

I have no illusions that my purchasing decisions, by themselves, will be determining factors in said export market, but I can make purchasing decisions out of conscience. As you stated, we can't dictate to Brazil and other countries with large rain forests in their territory, but depletion of these huge forests will affect the carbon dioxide/oxygen balance for the entire planet. This is an individual decision for each person and each of us will do the best s/he can with what s/he knows and how s/he understands it.

- Murray