"That Lather"

What is your opinion on fine shaving creams and hard soaps? Do you like Trumpers, Coates, Taylors, Truefitt & Hill? Post your reviews and opinions here!
User avatar
TRBeck
Soapgeek
Posts: 4873
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:59 pm
Location: Texas

Re: "That Lather"

Post by TRBeck » Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:51 pm

Tabac – potassium stearate, sodium stearate, potassium tallowate, potassium cocoate, water, sodium tallowate, parfum, sodium cocoate, glycerin, potassium hydroxide, tetrasodium EDTA, sodium hydroxide

Speick – potassium stearate, sodium stearate, potassium tallowate, water, potassium cocoate, sodium tallowate, sodium cocoate, parfum, glycerin, tetrasodium EDTA, etc. (i.e. a bunch of aromachemicals and artificial colors)

Slightly less water and more fragrance in Tabac, which is easy to tell from taking a sniff of each and trying to shred Tabac or press it into a different shape. Speick isn't malleable, exactly, but it is clearly not as hard as Tabac.
Regards,
Tim

Why should we not meet, not always as dyspeptics, to tell our bad dreams, but sometimes as eupeptics, to congratulate each other on the ever-glorious morning? - Henry David Thoreau

brothers
Posts: 18511
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:18 am
Location: Oklahoma City USA

Re: "That Lather"

Post by brothers » Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:30 pm

I had the impression Speick and Palmolive might be cousins if not siblings. Regarding ingredients, I believe Moos was more than just Tabac with different scents. The IM scent was one of those that I didn't enjoy over a period of time. Tabac took the opposite side of the track and ended up being one of my most well-liked over time. Regarding that lather, all of the above tallow based soaps are top shelf.
Gary

User avatar
TRBeck
Soapgeek
Posts: 4873
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:59 pm
Location: Texas

Re: "That Lather"

Post by TRBeck » Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:57 pm

Interesting, Gary. I think the assumption was always that Maurer and Wirtz used one soap supplier for all of their stuff, but that may not necessarily be so. Here are the Irisch Moos ingredients. Keeping in mind that the ingredients for a good shave soap aren't all that variable, the standout point is that all three of these Germann soaps appear to have tallowate and cocoate in proportions that are not that far from one anothe (otherwise the sodium tallowate would probably be listed ahead of potassium cocoate) and stearate in a high enough proportion that both the potassium and sodium salts of stearic acid are listed before getting to anything else. It has to be very, very stearic-heavy. Also note that this ingredients list includes stearic acid, despite being an outputs list and not an inputs list. Thus the soap is superfatted with stearic acid, and that unsaponified stearic acid no doubt contributes to the gooey lather texture (look at lotion and balm ingredient lists and you'll see stearic acid as a shelf-stable thickener and conditioner).

Aqua, Potassium Stearate, Sodium Stearate, Potassium Tallowate, Potassium Cocoate, Sodium Tallowate, Sodium Cocoate, Glycerin, Parfum, Stearic Acid, Linalool, Potassium Hydroxide, Eugenol, Coumarin, Butylphenyl, Methylpropional, Citronnellol, Tetrasodium EDTA, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Sodium Hydroxide, Limonene, Benzyl Benzoate, Geraniol, Cinnamal, CI 77891
Regards,
Tim

Why should we not meet, not always as dyspeptics, to tell our bad dreams, but sometimes as eupeptics, to congratulate each other on the ever-glorious morning? - Henry David Thoreau

User avatar
drmoss_ca
Admin
Posts: 9153
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:39 pm

Re: "That Lather"

Post by drmoss_ca » Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:44 pm

Oh, you're probably right in that it was Tabac and Irisch Moos that were siblings. I agree that the Palmolive stick was right up there as it sits under the Moos and the Speick at the same end of the same shelf. Perhaps the common factor is that shaving sticks are old-fashioned, and thus likely to be made from older recipes (ones that used by-products of beef farming rather than destroying the habitat of orang-utans for those who are both afraid of red meat and unwilling to consider the wider consequences of their choices).

C.
"Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothèse."
Pierre-Simon de Laplace

User avatar
TRBeck
Soapgeek
Posts: 4873
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:59 pm
Location: Texas

Re: "That Lather"

Post by TRBeck » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:40 pm

I think you're right, Chris. These old firms and classic recipes don't need to change. Once you make a perfect soap, why mess with it? How much money has Floris left on the table in the last decade as the wetshaving scene has exploded and left the sodium palmate crowd behind? Wouldn't hundreds of guys buy a tallow and potassium stearate version of the No. 89 soap or Taylor lavender? I know I would, even with 30 years worth of Palmolive and at least as much of my own soap on hand.
Regards,
Tim

Why should we not meet, not always as dyspeptics, to tell our bad dreams, but sometimes as eupeptics, to congratulate each other on the ever-glorious morning? - Henry David Thoreau

User avatar
drmoss_ca
Admin
Posts: 9153
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:39 pm

Re: "That Lather"

Post by drmoss_ca » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:25 pm

I just used the Irisch Moos, and I'm finding it very hard to imagine it is even related to Tabac. I expect the scent to be different, and it is, but the cakes of soap look wildly different after a couple of years of intermittent wetting and drying (one smooth and homogeneous, the other rough with lots of little cracks on the surface). The lather isn't the same either. The Irisch Moos isn't bad, but it lacks the generosity of Tabac. It simply doesn't produce as much volume of the shiny, slick lather I get with Tabac (like that of Speick and Palmolive). I guess I'll use the Tabac tomorrow to confirm this.

C.
"Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothèse."
Pierre-Simon de Laplace

brothers
Posts: 18511
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:18 am
Location: Oklahoma City USA

Re: "That Lather"

Post by brothers » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:49 pm

Chris, I haven't checked lately, but several years ago I compared the ingredients of those two soaps and if memory serves, I believe I found them to be somewhat less than identical.
Gary

User avatar
TRBeck
Soapgeek
Posts: 4873
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:59 pm
Location: Texas

Re: "That Lather"

Post by TRBeck » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:15 pm

I confess it's been a few years since I've used either Irisch Moos or Tabac. I do know that Tabac lathered unbelievably well for me and that I wish I could get on with the scent. That said, I suppose it's possible, too, that fragrance ingredients over time might affect things, as could the water content of the original product (IM, as a stick, had water in greater proportion than Tabac pucks, as I look as those ingredient lists). As each soap took on additional water and went through wetting and drying cycles, the initial moisture content may have caused variations in how the pucks held up - i.e., the cracks, etc.

Latherwise...well, who knows? I have a theory on Speick, though, and it relates to something we talked about in the Rolling My Own thread. When I can put it all together, I will do so.

How did the follow-up lather with Tabac go?
Regards,
Tim

Why should we not meet, not always as dyspeptics, to tell our bad dreams, but sometimes as eupeptics, to congratulate each other on the ever-glorious morning? - Henry David Thoreau

User avatar
drmoss_ca
Admin
Posts: 9153
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:39 pm

Re: "That Lather"

Post by drmoss_ca » Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:01 am

As it always does - nicely. After using them back to back, I don't think they are the same. Maybe the old chatter about them was wrong, or maybe it was another pairing of soaps?

C.
"Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothèse."
Pierre-Simon de Laplace

brothers
Posts: 18511
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:18 am
Location: Oklahoma City USA

Re: "That Lather"

Post by brothers » Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:59 am

When Maurer & Wirtz introduced the IM, I think everybody (including me) thought it was the same tallow recipe with a different scent. Now that the dust has settled and Tabac is the big winner, I think the biggest difference - the scent - was what cooled the demand for the Moos and the company chose to eliminate the also-ran and focus on the Original. I had no problems with IM's scent or lather and performance. I used up two sticks of it and sold all the rest.
Gary

User avatar
TRBeck
Soapgeek
Posts: 4873
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:59 pm
Location: Texas

Re: "That Lather"

Post by TRBeck » Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:32 pm

I got the Salter soap today, along with a brand new puck of Harris Almond.

First things first: the scent of the Salter is what I remember T&H Luxury being, although it has admittedly been about 6-7 years since I sold my last puck of that. Very old-school, very English, Edwardian barbershop as Gordon said.

Now about the ingredients list: the ingredients of the Harris soap and this one are identical except for fragrance ingredients. This is plainly made by the same firm using the same soap base. The puck is, as it was before, larger in diameter and shallower than the Harris. It is, nevertheless, the same stuff: same sheen to the hard puck and all. I am going to shave with it tomorrow.


Harris has changed its soap formulation more often than some of the English firms, just little tweaks, but I've seen probably eight or so different formulations of their soap - all heavy in tallow and all excellent - since I started on SMF a decade ago. Anyway, this current formula will, I'm sure, shave great, and I'll post a review after I use it. I did lather it up tonight and got the slick, fantastic lather I recall from the last time I owned a Harris soap. That lather. But the true tell will be in the shave.

There are a handful of scents that will always send me back to my first few months exploring the wetshaving world, scents that are, to me, the essence of traditional shaving. Trumper's rose. Taylor's lavender soap (wish I'd kept a couple). T&H rose cream. Oddly, Arko. Sandalwood from just about anyone, but in particular I love the old AOS from Valobra. And these two: Harris Almond and the Edwardian barbershop thing. The artisan revolution has been fantastic in many respects, and there are some great new soaps out almost daily it seems, but it's a shame in a way that there are guys getting into wetshaving right now who will never experience some of these classic products due to reformulations, discontinuations, or the saturation of the market. I imagine I'll keep these two soaps on hand, regardless of whether I use them as often as my homemade stuff, simply for the sake of tradition and a touch of my own nostalgia.

Now I need a Duke 3.
Attachments
20180428_171139.jpg
20180428_171139.jpg (501.58 KiB) Viewed 648 times
Regards,
Tim

Why should we not meet, not always as dyspeptics, to tell our bad dreams, but sometimes as eupeptics, to congratulate each other on the ever-glorious morning? - Henry David Thoreau

EL Alamein
Posts: 2683
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:55 pm

Re: "That Lather"

Post by EL Alamein » Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:35 pm

Tim, excellent observation. It had not remembered Harris' ingredients and their similarity. I think my cake might be slightly different as you mentioned the various formulations and mine is probably nigh a decade old (I can't remember right now).

I share your nostalgic experiences with regards to the old products. What you wrote really hit home with me. I suppose part of my reluctance to try artisan stuff may be wrapped up in the knowledge that I've already tried the upper crust stuff and there's not much more that artisan stuff can offer except variation in scent. I like variation in scent so maybe I'll dip a toe in that pool yet.

I'll be looking forward to your field report on this when you're ready to make it. Like you, I already suspect it will be an excellent soap.

Chris

User avatar
fallingwickets
Clive the Thumb
Posts: 8073
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:59 am

Re: "That Lather"

Post by fallingwickets » Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:54 am

A puck of cyril arrived here the other day. Im nowhere close to soap geekiness as most of you guys are, but i will say this: the $4.00 a puck one pays has to be THE VERY BEST DEAL ever in shave soap world.

For those members that havent used it recently or like me never before now, i HIGHLY recommend buying a puck or two. You wont be sorry you spent the $4!!!!!!!!!!!!

clive
de gustibus non est disputandum

User avatar
TRBeck
Soapgeek
Posts: 4873
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:59 pm
Location: Texas

Re: "That Lather"

Post by TRBeck » Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:01 am

I agree with Clive. It makes that lather. Harris soap for pennies.
Regards,
Tim

Why should we not meet, not always as dyspeptics, to tell our bad dreams, but sometimes as eupeptics, to congratulate each other on the ever-glorious morning? - Henry David Thoreau

brothers
Posts: 18511
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:18 am
Location: Oklahoma City USA

Re: "That Lather"

Post by brothers » Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:07 pm

fallingwickets wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:54 am
A puck of cyril arrived here the other day. Im nowhere close to soap geekiness as most of you guys are, but i will say this: the $4.00 a puck one pays has to be THE VERY BEST DEAL ever in shave soap world.

For those members that havent used it recently or like me never before now, i HIGHLY recommend buying a puck or two. You wont be sorry you spent the $4!!!!!!!!!!!!

clive
Now that it has been revealed to be the same formula as DRH, I will also attest that it performs like Harris tallow soaps, at an amazing price. I do like the slightly spicy barbershop scent.
Gary

User avatar
TRBeck
Soapgeek
Posts: 4873
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:59 pm
Location: Texas

Re: "That Lather"

Post by TRBeck » Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:39 pm

So I am a soap geek, as Clive says, and I have a few tiers of "that lather." In other words, although I acknowledge that there are lots of top-shelf products, I make some delineations even among the creme de la creme. For me, it works out about like this:

Group 1 - Chris Moss's homemade soap, a couple of the artisans, Palmolive, Speick, Haslinger, Tabac (we are speaking lather only here, not scent or packaging or "intangibles")

Group 2 - Valobra sticks (and, presumably, the tubs, which I haven't tried), the Italian soft soaps (too bad about the almond scent that burns my skin), a few of the artisans, the old Taylor soaps

Group 3 - Harris, PdP (I would use it but for the shea butter)

I like all of these soaps. A lot. I would gladly use any of them regularly. The divisions among them are, for me, mostly about the quality of the lather in the third pass, and these are fine distinctions, maybe a degree of difference in sheen or gooey-slick factor. Anyway, all of that to say, every one of the above is world-class in my book, and any complaint about the lather from them is just about preferences and not about actual quality (for instance, someone who doesn't insist on the gooey texture I prefer would probably like Valobra or Harris better than Palmolive). This Salter stuff is fantastic, and the scent is one I want in my den.

Kudos to Salter for choosing a new firm to make their soap. Perhaps some others will follow suit. If I could again buy a Taylor Lavender soap, I would buy a few. And a Sandalwood, I imagine. Perhaps a few of that, too, in fact. And a Trumper Sandalwood with this type of lather...grail stuff.
Regards,
Tim

Why should we not meet, not always as dyspeptics, to tell our bad dreams, but sometimes as eupeptics, to congratulate each other on the ever-glorious morning? - Henry David Thoreau

EL Alamein
Posts: 2683
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:55 pm

Re: "That Lather"

Post by EL Alamein » Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:53 pm

Tim, Gary, and Clive, thanks so much for this.

It's nice to know that some Firms are moving in the right direction AND that there seemingly is a manufacturer willing to make their soaps that way for any firm that signs on. My guess is that the said manufacturer would also entertain variations in the formula thus making the variations in "that lather" Tim has distinguished and many of us also used to experience.

Now if only the rest of the upper-crust manufacturers could move in that direction it would be a true Renaissance.

Chris

User avatar
TRBeck
Soapgeek
Posts: 4873
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:59 pm
Location: Texas

Re: "That Lather"

Post by TRBeck » Sat May 05, 2018 1:54 pm

I'm about to get very soap geeky, but then, what's this place for?

I was just perusing the archives here and read Chris's original post about the greatness of the stearate Taylor Lavender. The ensuing 6-page thread is an excellent read: Taylor Lavender

Here are the ingredients, if I'm not mistaken, from that old formulation. Of note is the presence of sodium cococate but no potassium cocoate and potassium stearate and palmate but no sodium salts of those. It appears that the firm that made it took a very hard sodium cocoate and palm kernelate base and then added to it a potassium soap of stearic, palm oil, and palm kernel oil. It's a totally unique approach among ingredients lists I've seen, but maybe someone else did something like it.

Ingredients:
Potassium Stearate
Potassium Palmate
Sodium Cocoate
Potassium Palm Kernelate
Sodium Palm Kernelate
Aqua (water)
Glycerin
Parfume (fragrance)
Sodium Chloride
CI 77891 (Titanium Dioxide)
C77007 (Ultramarines)
Pentasodium Penetate
Tetrasodium Edta
Tetrasodium Etidronate

Stearic and palmitic acids benefit hugely from potassium hydroxide, as it enhances their solubility when soaped. Coconut soap is just about as soluble as it gets, and it doesn't need any help. The palm kernel is much like coconut, but with additional stearic and palmitic acids (creamy, dense lather) on top of the dominant lauric and myristic acids (bubbly, quick-forming lather) that coconut provides. The upshot of this is that you could conceivably get a harder soap from the same constituent fats without compromising latherability. Also, you would have a very dense, rich lather from the predominance of stearates, but the palm oil would contribute, as tallow does, some oleic acid, which is kinder to the skin than the saturated fats of which the soap is mostly comprised.

Now, all of this is predicated on that list of ingredients, which was posted in a different thread by a respected member and which I assume to be accurate. I would love corroboration of that, though. Either way, it's worth noting to me as it is a unique means of offering "that lather."
Regards,
Tim

Why should we not meet, not always as dyspeptics, to tell our bad dreams, but sometimes as eupeptics, to congratulate each other on the ever-glorious morning? - Henry David Thoreau

User avatar
TRBeck
Soapgeek
Posts: 4873
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:59 pm
Location: Texas

Re: "That Lather"

Post by TRBeck » Sat May 05, 2018 6:46 pm

I'm attempting something similar now.

I've got potassium soap going in the crockpot with a sodium soap of coconut and pko already made and ready to mix in after the potassium soap hot processes. I will be superfatting a bit as I like to do, but the constituent fats are the same and in a ratio that would yield an outputs list like the one I posted except with no mineral chelators (the EDTAs) or colorants. I am using a fern-ish EO blend with lavender, clary sage, geranium, spruce, patchouli, oakmoss, and some woods. Not Pen's or the Taylor scent, but a lavender-centric blend that falls along the same lines albeit crudely.

I'm excited. Never tried anything like this. I was thinking it over more this afternoon. With a fast-loading soap, you use product more quickly, but you also get more of the soap on your face at once, sometimes more than intended. As water-soluble as coconut soap is, making it moreso with potassium hydroxide instead of sodium would lead to lots of (drying) coconut soap on your face at a given time. This might explain why the soap works so well for your skin, Chris: less drying because less coconut soap loaded on the brush.

Anyway, I will try it out tomorrow and report on it, but the soap will improve over the next few days, and I'll report back then, too.
Regards,
Tim

Why should we not meet, not always as dyspeptics, to tell our bad dreams, but sometimes as eupeptics, to congratulate each other on the ever-glorious morning? - Henry David Thoreau

EL Alamein
Posts: 2683
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:55 pm

Re: "That Lather"

Post by EL Alamein » Sat May 05, 2018 6:50 pm

Tim, in response to your post tonight I went down into the bunker here at the Chateau and retrieved a box of an unopened cake of Taylor's Old Formula English Lavender and I can confirm those ingredients. They are exactly as written.

These cakes of soap were only the ones offered in the wooden bowl at the time I acquired them. I eventually realized they were old formula and only on the market because they were offered in the wooden bowl which sells a lot slower than the replacement cakes. That's why I acquired them. They're pretty much gone now except for the occasional offering of old stock.

As an anecdote the other day I ferreted out an old cake of the Yardley (from the late 1960's or early 1970's - no royal warrant) acquired many years ago and shaved with it to compare. The lather was nearly identical. The Yardley has something in it that's slightly different though and I can't put my finger on it. It stays slightly wetter for a slightly longer period of time in my perception.

I could just be imagining this though, so take it with a grain of salt. In the end though both are fantastic soaps.

Although I wonder if the Yardley had something in it's ingredients that helped the lather stay wetter longer. We'll never know because they never put their ingredients on the box.

Chris

Post Reply