"That Lather"

What is your opinion on fine shaving creams and hard soaps? Do you like Trumpers, Coates, Taylors, Truefitt & Hill? Post your reviews and opinions here!
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Re: "That Lather"

Post by brothers » Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:04 pm

I am blessed to have laid claim to a supply of the good stuff, both old and new, and all tallow. AOS, Tabac, Strop Shoppe, MIke's and Pen's. It'll get me by. I just hope those who succeed me will have the good sense to hold onto whatever's left of it, and use it with as much appreciation and gusto as me.
Gary

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Re: "That Lather"

Post by CMur12 » Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:52 am

Gary, I, too, have a mega-stash of AOS by Valobra, Valobra Shave Sticks, and Valobra unscented cakes. When I heard that P&G had bought out AOS, I started hoarding the Valobra-made soap. I also have some Cella, Mike's, Tim's, and Mystic Waters. I don't think I'll ever use it all up.

- Murray
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Re: "That Lather"

Post by fallingwickets » Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:55 am

will have the good sense to hold onto whatever's left of it, and use it with as much appreciation and gusto as me.
they probably have ebay sales templates ready to go and are conniving where to go retire with the proceeds!! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
de gustibus non est disputandum

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Re: "That Lather"

Post by TRBeck » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:37 am

That Salter soap doesn't appear to be made by the makers of Mitchell's, but both appear to be doing something similar, what I think was the way everyone did it once and the way Valobra still does: there's clearly a sodium soap base (or just "soap base," as it was on the old Trumper soaps for instance) to which has been added a shaving soap formula (the potassium salts of stearic, coconut, etc., which on Trumper's old, old soaps was called "shaving soap base"). That's why both ingredient lists lead off (as does Valobra) with sodium tallowate. There's no potassium tallowate in the stuff, so they seem to have taken a bog standard 80/20 tallow/coconut bar soap and mixed it with potassium-derived shave soap. Potassium stearate thickens up most any lather, and potassium salts of other fatty acids tend to be less lather killing than the equivalent sodium salts - this is especially true of oleic acid, as I have found potassium oleate to have little effect on shave cream I have made provided everything else is done right. Who knows who is making the Salter stuff, but we can hope that it's someone who will start making T&H, Trumper, and TOBS pucks soon.

In the meantime, anyone know of a US source for the Salter soap?

Oh, and Chris, about "that lather" and hard water: I wonder if the combination of the old fatty acid profile and the presence of Tetrasodium EDTA is what really made the difference. There are not mineral chelators in most of the artisan soaps, and I understand their aversion to EDTA, but for really hard water, it really does help. I never used the stuff, and the best "natural" mineral chelator is citric acid, which unfortunately interacts with the lye and can result in some additional unsaponified fat. In this event, the citric acid is also chemically neutralized so it cannot do its thing on hard water. Some folks add sodium citrate to get around it, but I tried it and found its impact minimal at best compared to the dramatic job Tetrasodium EDTA does.
Regards,
Tim

Why should we not meet, not always as dyspeptics, to tell our bad dreams, but sometimes as eupeptics, to congratulate each other on the ever-glorious morning? - Henry David Thoreau

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Re: "That Lather"

Post by blantyre » Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:23 pm

Interesting thread. It’s perhaps a bit ironic that Salter is leading the charge here. If I remember correctly the old Salters (Before the tapered jar shape) was while a decent latherer, rather synthetic with sodium laurel sulfate listed as an ingredient. Certainly no tallow.
Rick

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Re: "That Lather"

Post by EL Alamein » Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:55 pm

Tim, thanks for the explanation, it helps me understand a little more.

Rick, yeah, the old Salter's creams in the white tub (what I have) definitely cheated with SLS. What can I say though, I really like my French Vetiver cream. It gets panned very harshly on a lot of threads for the scent but gosh I enjoy it. I wonder if it has anything to do with genetics, you know, like having a gene to smell something others cannot because they don't have the gene. In this case a gene to prefer a scent.

And even though they cheat on lather performance I really like Salter's lather. It's one of the densest lather's I've ever tried, just fantastic glide and protection.

I love the smell of fresh cut grass too so maybe their connected. The neighbor just cut his lawn for the first time this season and it smelled wonderful. I was a little kid again when the scent hit me. Tomorrow I'll probably follow suit. I may even use the Salter's to mark the seasonal occasion.

Chris

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Re: "That Lather"

Post by brothers » Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:27 pm

I got my 70g Salter's solid soap from Connaught and used it today for the first time. It's an easy winner for me in the lather competition. Thick, rich and slick. Current production - tallow - made in UK - pleasing scent - what's not to like?
Gary

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Re: "That Lather"

Post by EL Alamein » Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:16 pm

Gary, that's excellent to know. I've got it on my short list to try when the time permits.

Chris

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Re: "That Lather"

Post by EL Alamein » Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:20 pm

Gary, by the way, what is the scent like? Is it a clone of MWF? Or similar even?

Chris

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Re: "That Lather"

Post by TRBeck » Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:58 pm

Gary, thanks for the update. Petrolatum in the formula I just noticed, a feature it shares with Harris hard soaps. I'm intrigued enough to order one.
Regards,
Tim

Why should we not meet, not always as dyspeptics, to tell our bad dreams, but sometimes as eupeptics, to congratulate each other on the ever-glorious morning? - Henry David Thoreau

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Re: "That Lather"

Post by CMur12 » Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:54 pm

Tim, Valobra hard soaps (Valobra Shave Sticks and the hard cakes) have petrolatum in them, also, though it is one of the last ingredients listed and wouldn't be very much.

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Re: "That Lather"

Post by drmoss_ca » Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:15 am

TRBeck wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:37 am
Oh, and Chris, about "that lather" and hard water: I wonder if the combination of the old fatty acid profile and the presence of Tetrasodium EDTA is what really made the difference. There are not mineral chelators in most of the artisan soaps, and I understand their aversion to EDTA, but for really hard water, it really does help. I never used the stuff, and the best "natural" mineral chelator is citric acid, which unfortunately interacts with the lye and can result in some additional unsaponified fat. In this event, the citric acid is also chemically neutralized so it cannot do its thing on hard water. Some folks add sodium citrate to get around it, but I tried it and found its impact minimal at best compared to the dramatic job Tetrasodium EDTA does.
You may well be right - I have no experience of using EDTA in soaps (mostly I know it as the anticoagulant in blood sample tubes that are for CBCs).

C.
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Re: "That Lather"

Post by TRBeck » Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:29 am

CMur12 wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:54 pm
Tim, Valobra hard soaps (Valobra Shave Sticks and the hard cakes) have petrolatum in them, also, though it is one of the last ingredients listed and wouldn't be very much.

- Murray
You're right, Murray! I'd forgotten that.

And digging through the SMF archives, I came across Gordon talking about Harris soaps: "Note the 'petrolatum'...Floris used to have it in their shave soaps as well, back when they were excellent."

It's likely used as a way of stabilizing the moisture level of the lather and contributing to post-shave "feel." The older versions of Yardley bath soap contained it, too.

Previously, Salter soap seemed to be the same as the T&H Luxury soap: same scent, same lather, same ingredients, better price. T&H lost the mineral oil from its formulation several years ago, and the soap changed in a couple of other ingredients, and it became terrible, like the current Trumper stuff. So for the sake of speculation, what if the manufacturer of the Salter, T&H, and Vintage Blades soaps (no longer available) is shifting to a new formulation? Could we get a good T&H Luxury soap befitting the brand's name and heritage?

Anyway, for now, it's enough to know that there is a second good tallowate soap coming from a UK firm (I'm not including C&S soaps, which are made in Italy).
Regards,
Tim

Why should we not meet, not always as dyspeptics, to tell our bad dreams, but sometimes as eupeptics, to congratulate each other on the ever-glorious morning? - Henry David Thoreau

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Re: "That Lather"

Post by Nitrox » Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:52 am

Tim, I was going to mention that the Salter soap does in fact smell very similar to the T&H Luxury soap.
My first quality soap was indeed the Luxury soap, and no matter what, after many years I still can't get a good lather out of it.
I had a few cakes and used them up as bath soaps.
When the Salter soap arrived, and I used it for the first time, I could not believe that it was nearly identical scent wise to the T&H soap.
The only difference is that the Salter is night and day difference lather wise, which makes me very happy. :D :D :D
The price is outstanding as well, so that is a great bonus too.
Bruno

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shave every day and you'll always look keen."

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Re: "That Lather"

Post by TRBeck » Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:18 am

Bruno, thank you for the added info. I think that fragrance is one of the quintessential British shave soap scents. T&H had it, as did Trumper Oxford Blue scuttle soap, TOBS scuttle soap, Salter, Vulfix...herbal lavender, mostly, with a hit of verbena and some citrus, a touch of geranium: just fantastic. I like my homemade soaps but miss having quality pucks with those beautiful British barbershop bouquets.
Regards,
Tim

Why should we not meet, not always as dyspeptics, to tell our bad dreams, but sometimes as eupeptics, to congratulate each other on the ever-glorious morning? - Henry David Thoreau

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Re: "That Lather"

Post by brothers » Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:40 am

Bruno and Tim, thanks for providing this added information regarding the scent of this soap.
Gary

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Re: "That Lather"

Post by drmoss_ca » Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:16 pm

Nitrox wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:52 am
Tim, I was going to mention that the Salter soap does in fact smell very similar to the T&H Luxury soap.
My first quality soap was indeed the Luxury soap, and no matter what, after many years I still can't get a good lather out of it.
I had a few cakes and used them up as bath soaps.
When the Salter soap arrived, and I used it for the first time, I could not believe that it was nearly identical scent wise to the T&H soap.
The only difference is that the Salter is night and day difference lather wise, which makes me very happy. :D :D :D
The price is outstanding as well, so that is a great bonus too.
I don't remember if I ever bought Salter soap in the old days (I know I have full sets of Salter creams in both white and blue versions). I vaguely recall T&H soap being said to be the same as something else, but I think I gave my T&H soap away to someone who wanted it. I'm slowly working my way through the shelves of shame again with respect to soaps, mostly for the different scents as I don't expect the soap quality to have changed for the better as age and dehydration take hold (as they have upon my own frame). Lately I have been using a pair of ridiculously strongly scented olive oil soaps bought in Aleppo just before the sh*t kicked off (funny how it always happens just after my wife has visited....I wonder who she really works for?) as bath soaps. I know full well that olive oil soap cannot make the kind of lather we generally prefer for shaving, but a really slick and oily, even if clear and slimy, lather will do the job on properly prepped beard hair. I'm tempted to buy some olive oil and make some soap. I don't think I want to make pure 100% Castile, so I'm thinking I should perhaps try 50% olive oil, 25% 76º coconut and 25% lard or stearic acid. Since the intended use is shaving soap rather than bath soap, I might go for all KOH and no NaOH. Am I crazy?
"Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothèse."
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Re: "That Lather"

Post by TRBeck » Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:25 pm

Not crazy at all. I have a soap on hand made with 30% olive oil, 30% stearic, 15% castor, 5% coconut, and the remainder palm oil. All KOH. Lathers well, with fair stability. Not as good as the stuff we generally use, but very slick and does leave a good "post-shave feel."

EDIT: I should add that 30% Potassium Stearate seems like a pretty magical threshold for thickening up a lather and creating a meringue tendency, i.e. heading in the direction of "that lather." Also, the olive oil scent will come through, even a light olive oil, so a fragrance that matches well is a good idea: lavender EO, something herbal, etc. I have a lichen essential oil that is absolutely delightful in an olive oil-rich soap.
Regards,
Tim

Why should we not meet, not always as dyspeptics, to tell our bad dreams, but sometimes as eupeptics, to congratulate each other on the ever-glorious morning? - Henry David Thoreau

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Re: "That Lather"

Post by drmoss_ca » Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:10 pm

So 50% olive oil, 10% coconut, 10% castor oil and 30% stearic acid sounds good? All saponified with KOH? Shall I add the superfat after the cook, and if so what would you recommend? I don't mind the scent of olive oil and I'm a complete klutz at adding scents, so I probably won't try. I need a project to stop me from getting the Miata out of the garage before the salt is gone from the roads and this might work!

C.
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Re: "That Lather"

Post by TRBeck » Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:16 pm

Sounds like it could work. Certainly worth trying. Will be very soft but so what? It's not a bar soap. I superfat after cook always, and I generally use stearic and one of the butters, generally avocado because I'm sensitive to Shea. Straight stearic or stearic and coconut work well though. Additional lather stiffness and slickness, respectively, from those two lipids.
Regardless it'll be fun to test out, and if it isn't workable, it may give you a starting point from which to develop something that does work.

I look forward to a report on the cook and the shaves.
Regards,
Tim

Why should we not meet, not always as dyspeptics, to tell our bad dreams, but sometimes as eupeptics, to congratulate each other on the ever-glorious morning? - Henry David Thoreau

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