Locking the Thread?

[VinceFX]

Well guys...the topic continues to remain heated. This is a sign of some good things and some bad.

Pardon me while I slightly hijack this thread....

Firstly, I'm really glad to see you all so passionate about this board and all that transpires within. It means this community matters to you and that you care. This is a hobby that is near and dear to alot of us. This is a community where we communicate, share, trade goods, and so much more. This board probably occupies a fair amount of time out of your daily lives (as it does mine) and that makes it a valuable resource to all of us.

Some might think the topics that have transpired here have somehow damaged this forum or weakened our credibility. This is simply untrue. Instead, these recent events have firmly established this board as significant presence in our small wetshaving community. I can say this with confidence because at the moment our web traffic is through the roof

I continue to urge you all to be respectful and remember why this site exists...to share information about the art of wetshaving. That's it. Plain and simple. I am commited to driving this goal by providing you all with the technology needed to give you all a voice...and my oh my...what loud voices you all have

That being said, please continue to post on all topics that are important to you. If you think this site has deteriorated to a point that makes it un-enjoyable, then I ask that you take action and post something positive to improve your community!!! Otherwise, then much like the radio or TV, you are free to change the channel. I truly hope that you stay with us though and work with us to take the site to yet another level of success.

Now, finally....remember it's Memorial day weekend...this will be my last post for the night. Tomorrow I have a full day planned of BBQ's, swimming, and drinking beer with friends I encourage you all to take a break, enjoy the time with your families, and then comeback with a fresh perspective on things.

Have a great weekend everyone!!!!

Vince

[sean mac]

Well stated Vince.

I have not been a member of this site for a long time. However, the comments / suggestions / sharing of experiences related to wetshaving have had a very positive impact on my "shaving life." Thank you all for the time that you have invested in this site.

From time-to-time, I have read comments about problems associated with other wetshaving sites (ie: wetshavers). While not really sure of what those problems were, I found no site of such problems here. Its unfortunate that the discussion about these brushes has become so heated. As Vince has stated, perhaps its time for everyone to take a deep breath, and a long drink of his favorite beveridge.

In a civil society, disagreement is expected. Comments with no other purpose than being hurtful are not welcome, and contribute nothing to the discussion. It seems important to remember that we are here to critique shaving products, not individual shavers.

Thanks for the forum. Thanks for allowing me to share my two cents!

Sean

[Austin]

Very well put Sean .

[rtaylor61]

I admit, I am a newbie, but I am not a troll. I just spent a great deal of time going back through the "archives". Incredible reading, especially one thread in which Charles from QED wrote:

"This forum was started by a couple of rebels as the "New World" of WetShaving discussion, where EVERYONE is welcome. No one person should feel - or be lead to feel - he/she is the main force here. In addition, ALL members should be comfortable with the knowledge they can criticize QED and the product's QED sells. Though no one likes negative feedback, as long as it is fairly and intelligently presented, even a vendor can learn from such criticism. So if you don't criticize me, there's no way I learn where I am failing, not only with products but with service."

A true gentleman.

Randy

[razorguy]

An Update - For what its worth

I have taken the advice of several of the posts that have appeared in this and the other thread and have contacted several of the principles involved. The story that I hear is very different from that which has been presented so far!

1. While it may be true that opinions regarding brush styles, etc were solicited by Rooney's in developing the models which would be presented to the US market, to say that they were requested from only ONE US retailer is simply not true. In fact, the retailer who is to be initially offering the products did have significant input into the decision of what brush styles and sizes he felt would be successful. I have spoken to two others who also had input on the subject, one of them has been corresponding with Rooney for nearly 2 years, the other for 1 1/2 years. Obviously no one retailer was the driving force behind Rooney's decision to re-enter the US market.

2. The decision of which US retailer is to be offering "Rooney" branded brushes was made strictly on the merits of the proposals submitted to Rooney by the interested retailers. two wanted to market some Rooney-made brushes under a private label as part of the total range of brushes they offer. Another wanted to market the Rooney brushes as Rooney branded products in addition to the other brushes they sell. Now ask yourself this, If you have a product you want to introduce into a new market which method would be better for you as a manufacturer - to have them sold only under another name mixed in with products made by other makers or to have them marketed under your own brand name thereby establishing a brand identity from which to develop a larger retail network.

3. Answer number two plays a large part in answer number three. Yes, there is only one US distributor who has been appointed to import and distribute Rooney products on a wholesale basis. This is standard practice not only in the shaving products business but in virtually all business. It in no way implies that there will only be one retailer who will be offering the products for sale to the public. Without the Brand Name and Presence being established this would not be possible.

4. NO retailer has ever been promised or granted "exclusive" rights to Rooney products and none ever will! That would be entirely counterproductive from the perspective of a manufacturer, putting all of his eggs into one very fragile basket and his degree of success in the marketplace would be entirely dependent on the skills or abilities of that retailer. Would you do this?

I think that the noise that has been made regarding Rooney products and their re-introduction to the US market is little more than a "sour grapes" attitude on the part of one particular partisan for one particular retailer. It is no more than an attempt to poison the well for everyone else since control of the well is not in his (or his benefactor's) hands. This is a regrettable situation and one that serves no-one's interests.

In a nutshell, as best as I could discover there has been no foul play involved either on the part of the manufacturer or any of the other interested parties. It was a simple business decision based on a given set of circumstances as they exist today. To read any more into it or to make broad and sweeping statements regarding business practices or product integrity are simply unfounded. If anyone else has found out anything other than what I have reported here then please post the outcome of your research. I'm sure that we could all benefit from any facts that are made available.

razorguy

[Chris]

The story that I hear is very different from that which has been

Key words bolded. Everyone has a story. I tend to believe Charles as I see no motivation for him to lie, and to be quite honest I trust him far more than the other parties involved.

[hedonist]

Razorguy: I am at work so I cannot sit here and type a long drawn out reply but I think I can sum it up very briefly. What you have to understand is that we don't care about the workings of business, we consider Charles a friend and as such felt he was duped. I had an exchange with him a short while ago and he did confirm that Sabini gave his word that he would be the distributor or sole agent in the U.S., but he was obviously negotiating behind his back with Ray. Sabini never called him back after making his verbal agreement to say he was going back on it. Is it legal? Of course it is. Is it shady and ungentlemanly? Yes again, but then again as Charles says, "we live in the Enron era"

[Sam]

razorguy: how come sabini will not tell that to charles directly.

sam

[Johnnie]

An Update - For what its worth

I have taken the advice of several of the posts that have appeared in this and the other thread and have contacted several of the principles involved. The story that I hear is very different from that which has been presented so far!

1. While it may be true that opinions regarding brush styles, etc were solicited by Rooney's in developing the models which would be presented to the US market, to say that they were requested from only ONE US retailer is simply not true. In fact, the retailer who is to be initially offering the products did have significant input into the decision of what brush styles and sizes he felt would be successful. I have spoken to two others who also had input on the subject, one of them has been corresponding with Rooney for nearly 2 years, the other for 1 1/2 years. Obviously no one retailer was the driving force behind Rooney's decision to re-enter the US market.

2. The decision of which US retailer is to be offering "Rooney" branded brushes was made strictly on the merits of the proposals submitted to Rooney by the interested retailers. two wanted to market some Rooney-made brushes under a private label as part of the total range of brushes they offer. Another wanted to market the Rooney brushes as Rooney branded products in addition to the other brushes they sell. Now ask yourself this, If you have a product you want to introduce into a new market which method would be better for you as a manufacturer - to have them sold only under another name mixed in with products made by other makers or to have them marketed under your own brand name thereby establishing a brand identity from which to develop a larger retail network.

3. Answer number two plays a large part in answer number three. Yes, there is only one US distributor who has been appointed to import and distribute Rooney products on a wholesale basis. This is standard practice not only in the shaving products business but in virtually all business. It in no way implies that there will only be one retailer who will be offering the products for sale to the public. Without the Brand Name and Presence being established this would not be possible.

4. NO retailer has ever been promised or granted "exclusive" rights to Rooney products and none ever will! That would be entirely counterproductive from the perspective of a manufacturer, putting all of his eggs into one very fragile basket and his degree of success in the marketplace would be entirely dependent on the skills or abilities of that retailer. Would you do this?

I think that the noise that has been made regarding Rooney products and their re-introduction to the US market is little more than a "sour grapes" attitude on the part of one particular partisan for one particular retailer. It is no more than an attempt to poison the well for everyone else since control of the well is not in his (or his benefactor's) hands. This is a regrettable situation and one that serves no-one's interests.

In a nutshell, as best as I could discover there has been no foul play involved either on the part of the manufacturer or any of the other interested parties. It was a simple business decision based on a given set of circumstances as they exist today. To read any more into it or to make broad and sweeping statements regarding business practices or product integrity are simply unfounded. If anyone else has found out anything other than what I have reported here then please post the outcome of your research. I'm sure that we could all benefit from any facts that are made available.

razorguy

Thanks for the update Ray. Im glad we got the real story.

[Sam]

An Update - For what its worth (his stuff is the numbered paragraphs)


2. The decision of which US retailer is to be offering "Rooney" branded brushes was made strictly on the merits of the proposals submitted to Rooney by the interested retailers. two wanted to market some Rooney-made brushes under a private label as part of the total range of brushes they offer. Another wanted to market the Rooney brushes as Rooney branded products in addition to the other brushes they sell. Now ask yourself this, If you have a product you want to introduce into a new market which method would be better for you as a manufacturer - to have them sold only under another name mixed in with products made by other makers or to have them marketed under your own brand name thereby establishing a brand identity from which to develop a larger retail network.

did sabini let charles know that other retailers were being contacted? did he let charles assume that charles was the only interested retailer? did sabini promise charles that charles would be carrying the line? unless u are sabini, only charles and sabini know for sure. let sabini come here and post otherwise, but i guess, sabini has been called out, cause what i have read surely indicates to me that this is what sabini did.

3. Answer number two plays a large part in answer number three. Yes, there is only one US distributor who has been appointed to import and distribute Rooney products on a wholesale basis. This is standard practice not only in the shaving products business but in virtually all business. It in no way implies that there will only be one retailer who will be offering the products for sale to the public. Without the Brand Name and Presence being established this would not be possible.

doubtful as to the legitimacy of this view. some manufactures come into the american market and act as their own retailer. some manufacturers have more than one wholesaler. but classic shaving is not a wholesaler, it is a direct retailer. you think ray is going to sell the brushes to charles at his costs? not that he should but this view is nonsensical. rooneys could have acted as its own distributor and wholesaled the products themselves and let charles, ray and others carry them, ala simpsons.


4. NO retailer has ever been promised or granted "exclusive" rights to Rooney products and none ever will! That would be entirely counterproductive from the perspective of a manufacturer, putting all of his eggs into one very fragile basket and his degree of success in the marketplace would be entirely dependent on the skills or abilities of that retailer. Would you do this?

well, maybe gordon and others can help me out, but arent there some haberdashers that are only associated with barneys? you know, certain retailers bring cachet to a brand, even if the brand may be less than stellar, and it owes all to the status of the retailer. exclusivity can be desireable to certain people and brands.


In a nutshell, as best as I could discover there has been no foul play involved either on the part of the manufacturer or any of the other interested parties. It was a simple business decision based on a given set of circumstances as they exist today. To read any more into it or to make broad and sweeping statements regarding business practices or product integrity are simply unfounded. If anyone else has found out anything other than what I have reported here then please post the outcome of your research. I'm sure that we could all benefit from any facts that are made available.

again, i doubt that you checked with charles. the position is rather simple. it is posited that charles was promised first shot and exclusivity. if you talk to charles, i am pretty sure he will say so. then if you talked with sabini, i guess he says otherwise. so now, it is not a simple business decision, but one of the parties either is not truthful, or has a bad case of memory.

razorguy

sam

[Sam]

now razorguy, ill go ahead and say what others might be thinking. if you have talked to other "parties" and this is what you have heard, well, you certainly have a lot of pull. i doubt anyone at rooney's would take my call to talk about this. so either you are well connected and in an inner circle of sorts or you are b.s. ing us. i dont think it is the later, so i would say that you must work for ray or rooneys or are really something up there, well beyond my level of access

sam

[razorguy]

What difference does it make who I am or who I know if what I am saying is true and correct. Decide for yourself whether it is or not based on your own intellect and experience. Isn't that the purpose of this web site, to listen to what everyone has to say and then draw your own conclusions?

Just ask yourself the obvious questions and use your own common sense to answer them. You'll be amazed at how much BS disappears when common sense and logic are applied instead of biased hyperbole, inuendo, and personal attacks.

razorguy

[jvan]

So just when did Ray become chopped liver?

Some people are so very quick to turn on someone else. We have two disparate stories from two individuals regarding a subject that is at least none of my business.

Less than a week ago the two merchants involved in this drama were both respected and patronized by the majority of us now it seems as if we have to choose the camp of one or the other. Topics such as this one bring absolutely no good to this or any other forum.

Read the posts regarding this subject from the past few days and see if they have the same tone as those in the past when we were all into discussing wet shaving. Why not get back to where we were.

John

[Sam]

ok, razor guy, did you talk to charles? seems that he is one side of the story.

jvan: i will still patronize ray. i have seen nothing by anyone to say he did anything wrong. he has always been good to me and been a great proprietor. i dont think this involves us picking one or the other retailers. it has lessened my desire to read anymore about rooney though or try the razor. and to think that what charles had tried to do for gordon getting kibashed, not that gordon was expecting it, well, that leaves a sour taste in my mouth for gordon's sake.

sam

[Johnnie]

What difference does it make who I am or who I know if what I am saying is true and correct. Decide for yourself whether it is or not based on your own intellect and experience. Isn't that the purpose of this web site, to listen to what everyone has to say and then draw your own conclusions?

Just ask yourself the obvious questions and use your own common sense to answer them. You'll be amazed at how much BS disappears when common sense and logic are applied instead of biased hyperbole, inuendo, and personal attacks.

razorguy

Ray, if you identify yourself it will give you some credibilty and put all of this to rest once and for all. If you tell everyone who you are Ray, all the BS will go away and no more personal attacks. Plus think of how many people will have to apologize to you.

[qed-usa]

Who is razorguy?

Who ever he is, he did not speak directly with me. However, he seems to have spoken to every other party ... interesting.

Regardless who he is, he has no way of knowing what transpired between me and Sabini.

I've been in the retail racket for over 20 years. When I first opened my shop I offered Rooney brushes, and I've dealt on-and-off over those 20 years with Rooney ... mostly off, because they were always very difficult to communicate with. Nonetheless, I knew of, and dealt with Rooney, long before Sabini came on the scene.

1. I would never compete with other retailers for the "privelege" of carrying ANY manufacturers products. I would not give a foreign manufacturer the benefit of my experience under the hope of winning his business.

2. I did not submit any "proposal" to Rooney regarding their branded brushes or private label.

3. Not only did I suggest a single distributor to Rooney, I also suggested he keep the U.S. brush models exclusive to the U.S., and not offer them to English retailers. Wonder if Peter from the WetShavers forum will have any luck finding them in Britain?

4. You - whoever you are - cannot speak about the Sabini/QED understanding.

Very dramatic phrases, "sour grapes" and "poison the well", if you are attempting to influence the weak-minded. Fortunately, the gentlemen here have more than half a brain.

Charles
Q E D

[razorguy]

As I said earlier, who I am is meaningless. And no, I did not speak with Charles at QED. Since we've all heard that side of the story already I didn't see the need to.

I will say this however, I am not a new guy who just fell from the moon. I have followed and participated on this board and others for quite a long time. The reason that I have registered with a new username for this thread is because as you will recall the first post on this subject was a very nice and informative product review. The second post was filled with invective and unsubstantiated claims. I did not and do not want to become the target of any one member's or moderator's ire, as this particular moderator has previously shown a propensity for holding grudges and acting without first thinking. What I did want to do is present an alternative point of view, one that I thought would be useful and welcome. I was apparently quite wrong on both points.

I can now see that there is little interest in knowing the entire story or approaching it with an unbiased and balanced approach. All that seems to matter is who I am, not what I've said. I could have saved my time and allowed you all to go on hearing only what "der fuhrer" has said and you would have been just as informed as others who have done similarly in the past have been.

There is a reason why some who have posted on this subject have referred to "lynch mobs" - That is what this group was turning into and it was all generated by one poster's comments. But don't believe me, after all, who am I - Go back to the beginning and review, see for yourself. If any one of you can cite an instance where I have been un-gentlemanly or inciteful please point it out to me. On the other hand take a good look in the mirror as you do!

razorguy

[Johnnie]

Actually Ray, at this point, it would be best if you identify yourself. If what you say is sooo true then you should come out of the closet and be proud for what you believe.

You know, I never understood why people hide if they are so proud of what they believe in. Osama, Sadaam, Kadafi. Damn cowards!

At this point there is no other reason to identify yourself other than honor. Without honor you are nothing. Razorguy, go out like a man and dont hide like a coward.


Johnnie

[qed-usa]

Razorgent:


WHO ARE YOU that you claim to have the entire story and that it is "unbiased"? You didn't talk to me for what reason? Well, other chaps on this forum can believe you if they want, but if you know the true story then there's only one reason why you didn't call me.

I am not part of any "lynch mob" and it'd be nice if you stopped using phrases which classify me, or other fine gentlemen on this forum, in such a way that we must be wrong. Nice subtle use of language but I'm not buying into it.

The issue is not about Classic Shaving or Cambridge Chemists or The Gentleman's Shop or Em's or Lee's or anybody else's dealings with Rooney. The issue is about MY dealings with Rooney. And only 2 people know the truth [you're not one of them], regardless how much invetigating you've done.

Now where's my rope ...

Charles
Q E D


P.S. By the bye, a young man, who really wants to believe in you, has asked you a couple times to identify yourself.

[qed-usa]

Vince/Joel -

I'd like to openly request this subject be ended ... is the correct term "locked"? It's heading nowhere and I see no value in allowing it to continue.

The Rooneys are here. I suggest chaps give them a consideration along with all the other brushes out there, then make the choice they feel best.

Those chaps who know me unerstand my essence. I am not prone to exaggeration and I am certainly not a liar. Nor am I a complete idiot unable to understand the meaning of another person's words. It makes no sense that I would waste my valuable time providing a foreign manufacturer the benefit of my 20 years experience selling shaving brushes and toiletries on the American market in the hope of gaining that manufacturer's favor.

Charles
Q E D