End of european badger hair in shaving brushes?Plisson &

[Teiste]

Gentleman:
as you already know I have told many times how Vie Long uses european badger hair in their shaving brushes and that they used to have the same badger hair distributor than Plisson.
Well,I have been "investigating" since I discovered a small factory in Spain (Escoda) that used to make a badger brush (only one model) with european white badger hair.Somebody from foroafeitado.com got that brush and also, contacted the guy that makes the brushes, and he told my friend that european hair wasn't available anymore, and that he was getting Chinese badger instead of Russian one to make his brush,which was a shame to him, since he thought that the european badger hair was better.
Well,after knowing that I have been asking here and there,to brush makers and other people (distributors) about it and it seems that european badger hair its not available since march 2009,when the last distributor "closed" his business,so I have sent a message to Plisson and Vie Long about it, with no response from them, and Im not holding my breath to get one,to be honest.
The question now is:is Plisson using european badger hair in their top line brushes?and what about Vie Long?I must say that VL dont promote that as much as Plisson and also the VL top line badger brushes are cheaper than many other brands,but what about Plisson?Are we paying for the badger hair or for the "marketing",tradition, and so on that Plisson has?
It seems to me that:or they have a huge stock of european badger hair which would last forever (badger and boar hair is sold by kilos) or theyre using chinese hair and basically charging us a fortune for it (Plisson),which is fine if you have the money and want to spend it in one,but at least,they should let know what are you really getting.
I dont have any problems getting a shaving brush with chinese badger but as a customers I wanna know what Im getting and the "silence" from the makers its not something that I like either.
If anybody have further info about it I hope can share it here with us.

[Thalay Sagar]

Interesting news, Teiste. Thanks for reporting it. Out of curiosity, did the gentleman explain why he considered European hair superior?

[ATLpr8head]

I have much respect for both companies but Plisson is your typical French, high end, price gouging company. I laugh hysterically when I see how much they charge for their pure brushes. If they charged those prices and you got quality? fine. You get nothing.

Look at this brush http://www.rasageplisson.com/epages/161 ... s/PA955800

This is a waste of $$$ and a raging POS brush. I will admit the uber high end HMW in fancy horn are nice looking....total waste of money. The plexi handles are as much a slap in the face as Naive......sorry....Evian water. <$10 handle? Jokes on the buyer I guess.

[M6Classic]

I have much respect for both companies but Plisson is your typical French, high end, price gouging company. I laugh hysterically when I see how much they charge for their pure brushes. If they charged those prices and you got quality? fine. You get nothing.

Look at this brush http://www.rasageplisson.com/epages/161 ... s/PA955800

This is a waste of $$$ and a raging POS brush. I will admit the uber high end HMW in fancy horn are nice looking....total waste of money. The plexi handles are as much a slap in the face as Naive......sorry....Evian water. <$10 handle? Jokes on the buyer I guess.

And you have used just how many Plisson brushes and for how long?

I used one Plisson HMW set in plexiglass for thirty-five years before I invested in another. I believe that they can be an economical alternative for a shaver who wants only one brush and will use that brush for a long time. I also believe that not everyone appreciates what a Plisson brush offers in performance, comfort and longevity and I am on record as advising most people against the purchase of one. I do agree that horn is a poor material for shave brush handles, but that criticism obtains to all who use it, not just Plisson.

It is clear that you think a plexi-set Plisson HMW is a waste of money, we are each entitled to his or her learned opinions. Nonetheless, I am pleased that Plisson brushes move you to hysteria, laughter is good for the soul. When I need a good laugh, I like to read semi-literate reviews form the ill-informed. Chaque un a son gout.

Buzz

[rustyblade]

I was going to make a joke about waiting for the Plisson apologists, but Buzz beat me to it.

But what really makes a Plisson different from any other quality brush?

Variables:

Quality of bristle, which seems to be not so special anymore. Chinese Badger apparently.

How knot is made (density, loft, shape). Talking hand-made here, which again is not unusual, at all. Let's remember, it is a chunk of shaped animal fur bound tightly together.

How knot is mounted (quality of glue). Not rocket science, yet every company produces some shedders.

And...the handle.

[Ecosse]

Teiste, I've read the threads over at TSR. If it is as has been mentioned that its possible that its hair from european species from a non european country, is that a bad thing?

[KAV]

Late 19th century THE plastic of many industries was a material easilly cut and shaped under low heat. The problem, aside from being regarded as a rather common material was sailing for 2 years,throwing a harpoon deep into the lung tissue of a baleen whale and rendering the beast.
About the time that industry was finished some of the finest british jewelry was set in a VERY exotic metal called ( brit pronunciation please)
aluminum. Ivory was common, as was the still available buffalo horn ( tip being the best portion for handles) and even the hair horn of the african pest rhinocerous. Gutta percha from the newly emerging rubber idustry made functional pistol grips for Colt revolvers with lovely eagles,rampant pony and checkering. One could also have many goods fashioned from wood.
I'm going to go don my Hermes tie, splash some Guerlain Imperial and read Le Petit Prince with my 50 Franc bookmark. Do post what high end shaving brushes should be handled with when I return.
Povre petit chou chou.

[M6Classic]

I was going to make a joke about waiting for the Plisson apologists, but Buzz beat me to it.

But what really makes a Plisson different from any other quality brush?

Variables:

Quality of bristle, which seems to be not so special anymore. Chinese Badger apparently.

How knot is made (density, loft, shape). Talking hand-made here, which again is not unusual, at all. Let's remember, it is a chunk of shaped animal fur bound tightly together.

How knot is mounted (quality of glue). Not rocket science, yet every company produces some shedders.

And...the handle.

I am moved to wonder why some individuals feel compelled to attack Plisson brushes, especially when their criticism seems based upon idle speculation and breathtaking ignorance.

Buzz

[drumana]

Wow. Some hardcore Plisson enthusiasts and dissenters.

I've never had a Plisson brush, but have seen them in person and even handled some of them at Colonial Drug. They seem like good brushes, but not quite my style and, yes, seem a little expensive for what they are. I don't know - I've just never been drawn to the Plissons.

[KAV]

European badgers are a seperate species from asiatic badgers. If you people want to sleep at night it is a simple matter,though expensive to conduct DNA analysis of the hair.
In terms of quality- for shaving and not as God intended for the wearer
that seems subjective to anecdotal experience and ethnic hubris. Again, perhaps UL could do a product test and affix it's label to brushes passing a set criteria.
FYI, the guards at Buckingham Palace are wearing synthetic hats. The cost of bear skins ( canadian in keeping with the ideals of the Commonwealth) became cost prohibitive. Synthetic is somewhat lighter. I do not have any data on guardsmen passing out from heat wearing the new hats vs those issued old hats.

[bernards66]

An interesting piece of information. It is unfortunate that neither of those mentioned makers have chosen to respond to your inquiries, at least not yet. As far as Plisson is concerned, this stopage, if for real, would only effect two of their lines. Although they've never said so point blank, it's assumed that their HMW was from northern China. The European Whites and Greys were sourced in Russia and elsewhere in Eastern Europe and the EWs were actually considerably less pricey than the ( Chinese/Manchurian ) HMW. So, if this information is correct, what have we lost? Well, as far as Plisson is concerned, it would be a less expensive alternative to their HMW models. FWIW, I have one of each. My EW is a #14 and was bought several years ago. The bristle is heavier gauge than my more recent HMW and is packed more densely. Both are superb and unique brushes and were both quite expensive. To me, Plissons are their own thing, a unique piece of old school quality, cache, and shaving tradition. Whether they are 'worth' the high price tag is a purely personal judgement.
Regards,
Gordon

[Teiste]

Teiste, I've read the threads over at TSR. If it is as has been mentioned that its possible that its hair from european species from a non european country, is that a bad thing?

Well it seems thats the case.
The good thing about boards and asking for information is that ususally you get it from the right people.I have received a pm from a really trustable source about Plisson: according to Vikim Diffusion (the company behind Plisson,Joris and Maison Du Barbier) the hair comes from China,yes,but from Meles Meles badger,the european badger.How this badger species was introduced in China,I dont know but its living in some parts of China and it seems that Plisson its getting that kind of hair for the european white line.So its chinese badger with european DNA.
So at the end its european badger with chinese passport.
Interesting stuff unless that somebody elses got more info about this,but it seems pretty clear now.

[bernards66]

Tieste,
Well, that's more interesting still.
Regards,
Gordon

[KAV]

Native chinese badgers are hunted because of alleged crop damage. For european badgers to be used implies raising in cages much like the russian fur industry.

[drP]

I was going to make a joke about waiting for the Plisson apologists, but Buzz beat me to it.

But what really makes a Plisson different from any other quality brush?

Variables:

Quality of bristle, which seems to be not so special anymore. Chinese Badger apparently.

How knot is made (density, loft, shape). Talking hand-made here, which again is not unusual, at all. Let's remember, it is a chunk of shaped animal fur bound tightly together.

How knot is mounted (quality of glue). Not rocket science, yet every company produces some shedders.

And...the handle.

The name....

[Fido]

May be of interest:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/life/European_Badger

[95%]

Buzz- I knew that post would get a rise out of you. No doubt about it: the quality of a brush that still holds up after 35 years and thousands of uses speaks for itself.

How about posting some pictures of that mighty Plisson? I'm sure many of us will be interested.

[M6Classic]

Buzz- I knew that post would get a rise out of you. No doubt about it: the quality of a brush that still holds up after 35 years and thousands of uses speaks for itself.

How about posting some pictures of that mighty Plisson? I'm sure many of us will be interested.

I will, but I have to enlist the help of my son who knows how to post pictures. Up to now, I still store all my photographs on 24mm X 36mm chips of acetate.

By the way, when my son shaves...only recently in his daily routine (there must be a young lass involved)..he lathers up with a pre-Vulfix Chubby 3 in super. I did buy him a NOS Plisson HMW #20 set in plexiglass when production ceased, but he prefers the Chubby. Go figure.

Buzz

[Ecosse]

Over 35 years of shaving, that's well over 12,000 shaves. And for argument sake, if the brush was $350 new, that's only $10 a year to pay for the brush. Either way you stack it up, the economics of such a brush ends up being a mere pittance.

[vtmax]

I used the NOS Plisson #16 HMW this morning and loved it. It does not get much use as I am a Simpson fanatic but I admit to reaching for it more and more these days. I don't try and justify the cost. We all know they are expensive but to me it's becoming a great brush I enjoy. Time will tell if the horn holds up.

Max