SMF

you say tomato, i say tomayto.

ok, we see this word 'sterilized' on the simpson brush stickers and it's been used for years on their brushes. and as we all know it's an english company stretching back decades

however the traditional english spelling of the word sterilized, is sterilised. the spelling with a z is considered here as an american thing, although some folks over here do use it occasionally. there are other similar words in which we also use an s instead of a z (e.g fertilise / fertilize, anaesthetise / anaesthetize). however the traditional english way of spelling these words is always with an s.

therefore i've often been curious why simpson chose to use the american way of spelling this word on their brushes, given that they are as english as afternoon tea with cucumber sandwiches, buttered crumpets, the thwack of leather on willow, having a stiff upper lip and remaining in a loveless marriage because it's 'the right thing to do'.

any ideas?

America's the largest market?

Actually, up until the mid-twentieth century the use of 'ize' was more common than 'ise' in British English. That was progressively more true in terms of the ratio of the two spellings as you look further back. By the time you get to Elizabethan English the 'z' was practically ubiquitous. All bets are off before that, as no standard spellings of anything were recognised until the spread of the printing press caused a degree of standardisation (or, I should say, 'standardization'?)

So why the 's'? Seems there was a, probably, incorrect belief that because similar words existed in French that used an 's' we had borrowed them from French and damned well ought to spell them right, even if it Johnny Crapaud's word. It is more likely that English obtained the words in parallel to the French and did so with a 'z'. This use of 's' was considered incorrect but has gradually become tolerated. I suspect (my theory alone, thank you, Miss Elk) that it was the great influx of American culture in the twenties and thirties with all those 'z's that made the British more tolerant of the use of 's' - it was something that set us apart, and quickly became a demarcation. I ought to use the word 'shibboleth' here as it fits perfectly, but have already used it once this year and that's my limit.

If you want to be totally correct, use 'ise' for verbs whose original form, generally in French, takes an 's' - this is not a compromise.
If a noun has been verbalized, it requires a 'z'. For myself, I set no good example. I am used to the 's' more than the 'z', so I may not always follow the rule. This is an area where I am prepared to be descriptive rather than prescriptive, but don't get me started on the areas of English where it is the other way around!

Chris

or you can follow clives easy to follow idiot method of deciding whether to use z or s......let the spellchecker decide

clive

fallingwickets wrote:or you can follow clives easy to follow idiot method of deciding whether to use z or s......let the spellchecker decide

clive

Somehow, double edge wet shaving and a spell checker seem so...so...antithetical?

Buzz

got to keep it in balance Buzz l

clive

wow chris! that's really interesting to know the whole history behind it. i am impressed.

i had just always assumed that using the s was the english way of doing it and did not think that in fact the z is the more traditional way. this all makes sense now.

'Ize' and 'ise' are pretty much both acceptable in English English. My understanding has always been that 'ize' is the spelling 'approved' by Oxford University and used in the publications of Oxford University Press. The spell checker in Microsoft Word allows me to use both and I prefer 'ize' on the basis that I've always supported Oxford against Cambridge in the boat race.

Ize' and 'ise' are pretty much both acceptable in English English.

not to me they're not! i never use ize, and i use words for a living.

if someone at work handed me a document using zs instead of s's i'd make them change it before it went out. i know plenty of other people also who wouldn't dream of using it either, but i agree that some people do use ize over here in the uk along with a lot of other 'americanisms' e.g. saying skedule instead of schedule etc.

brz90 wrote:'Ize' and 'ise' are pretty much both acceptable in English English. My understanding has always been that 'ize' is the spelling 'approved' by Oxford University and used in the publications of Oxford University Press. The spell checker in Microsoft Word allows me to use both and I prefer 'ize' on the basis that I've always supported Oxford against Cambridge in the boat race.

Perhaps you might read my post above and be enlightened. Oxford would not agree they they are the arbiters of correct English, and if they were, would that mean that the 'z' would be the correct usage in the fenlands around Cambridge? Of course not.

Chris

No zence agonising over it.

paddy wrote:you say tomato, i say tomayto.

ok, we see this word 'sterilized' on the simpson brush stickers and it's been used for years on their brushes. and as we all know it's an english company stretching back decades

however the traditional english spelling of the word sterilized, is sterilised. the spelling with a z is considered here as an american thing, although some folks over here do use it occasionally. there are other similar words in which we also use an s instead of a z (e.g fertilise / fertilize, anaesthetise / anaesthetize). however the traditional english way of spelling these words is always with an s.

therefore i've often been curious why simpson chose to use the american way of spelling this word on their brushes, given that they are as english as afternoon tea with cucumber sandwiches, buttered crumpets, the thwack of leather on willow, having a stiff upper lip and remaining in a loveless marriage because it's 'the right thing to do'.

any ideas?

Think someone has already said - the 'ize' was more common in Great Britian than 'ise; when Great Uncle Alex started using decals on brushes. And for the records, I hope if you hear strange noises in your house tonight it isn't my Great Uncle coming to haunt you for making such an upsetting remark! We were not as 'English as afternoon tea' Our family roots are as Scottish as haggis!!! Great Uncle Alex was a very VERY proud scotsman!

Gary

ha! ok, well i guess then that last sentence should read:

"therefore i've often been curious why simpson chose to use the american way of spelling this word on their brushes, given that they are as scottish as arteriosclerosis, deep fried mars bars, irn-bru, the thwack of forehead against nose on a saturday night, and getting married because your old lady won a bet that she could drink you under the table."

paddy wrote:ha! ok, well i guess then that last sentence should read:

"therefore i've often been curious why simpson chose to use the american way of spelling this word on their brushes, given that they are as scottish as arteriosclerosis, deep fried mars bars, irn-bru, the thwack of forehead against nose on a saturday night, and getting married because your old lady won a bet that she could drink you under the table."

Paddy, I had quite a laugh at your last two posts. Thanks, I needed that.

paddy wrote:ha! ok, well i guess then that last sentence should read:

"therefore i've often been curious why simpson chose to use the american way of spelling this word on their brushes, given that they are as scottish as arteriosclerosis, deep fried mars bars, irn-bru, the thwack of forehead against nose on a saturday night, and getting married because your old lady won a bet that she could drink you under the table."

Better!!

drmoss_ca wrote: Perhaps you might read my post above and be enlightened. Oxford would not agree they they are the arbiters of correct English, and if they were, would that mean that the 'z' would be the correct usage in the fenlands around Cambridge? Of course not.
Chris

This is what the Oxford English Dictionary says. Oxford University Press follow these guidelines too. You may well be correct in the things you put on your earlier post - I didn't post to disagree with you! Anyway here it is:

"the suffix itself, whatever the element to which it is added, is in its origin the Greek -ιζειν, Latin -izāre; and, as the pronunciation is also with z, there is no reason why in English the special French spelling should be followed, in opposition to that which is at once etymological and phonetic. In this Dictionary the termination is uniformly written -ize."

And the online Oxford Dictionary says both spellings are acceptable in British English. Any academics in the Fenlands around Cambridge would use 'ise' because they're around Cambridge not Oxford.
I would think the Oxford English Dictionary is something of an authority though, wouldn't you? (I'm a bit bored with this now to be honest).

Simpson brushes seem even more desirable to me now.

Well there you are, I always preferred light blue over dark blue. Even if the light blue shirts never seemed to win.

It seems we are in agreement that 'ize' is the surprisingly correct version, even if that is not the one commonly used. Descriptive types may carry on. Prescriptive ones who cam cope with change must start exercising their left little finger. For myself, I shall do what looks right. It works when I cook, so why not?

Oh, and the Simpsons? Yes, very desirable. Every time I write 'pre-Vulfix' I am reminded of the days when a 'pre-unit' BSA was the bee's knees. A little further back a rotary engine in your Camel was a Le Rhône, but if it was actually made by Le Rhône, and not sub-contracted to Clerget etc it was known as a "Le Rhône Le Rhône". Sadly, my M1 carbine was made by the Underwood typewriter company. The exigencies of war, you see.

Chris

Yes - sweet agreement - on Simpson brushes and the rest
And my team beat Manchester United on Saturday - life is good.

Jack

drmoss_ca wrote:. A little further back a rotary engine in your Camel was a Le Rhône, but if it was actually made by Le Rhône, and not sub-contracted to Clerget etc it was known as a "Le Rhône Le Rhône". Sadly, my M1 carbine was made by the Underwood typewriter company. The exigencies of war, you see.

Chris

KAV? Is that you?

paddy wrote:ha! ok, well i guess then that last sentence should read:

"therefore i've often been curious why simpson chose to use the american way of spelling this word on their brushes, given that they are as scottish as arteriosclerosis, deep fried mars bars, irn-bru, the thwack of forehead against nose on a saturday night, and getting married because your old lady won a bet that she could drink you under the table."

Well done! My Earl Grey almost ejected through my nose! ...The thwack of forehead against nose definetly sounds Scottish, but the last bit... Isn't that Irish?*

*my wife is Irish and yes, she can drink me under the table...