"Massaging" Vs. "Painting" Lather Applic

mantic · Post by **mantic** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:56 pm

THIS thread motivated me to do some research about lather application and whether "painting" or "massaging" created the best lather with a shaving brush. After messing with it on and off for the past couple of months I have come to a tentative theory: shaving brushes with short lofts or very dense bristle knots tend to work better with a painting motion, while brushes with longer lofts or less densly-packed knots tend to work better with a massaging motion.

But before I make a video about it I would appreciate some confirmation from those of you who have a variety of brushes in your collection. For myself, my Rooney SMF III, Emsplace "greys," VLB (turned all the way up) and C&E BBB seemed to work better with massaging while my New Forest and VLB (turned all the way down) worked better with painting.

--Mark

CMur12 · Post by **CMur12** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:05 pm

Hi Mark -

My experience has been just the opposite, assuming that by "massaging" you mean the circular motions that most seem to use for face-lathering.

I lather in a bowl and paint the finished product onto a very wet beard because my skin doesn't tolerate on-site lathering. For me, a tall loft with medium density and easy flex does the most efficient job of lathering in a bowl and the gentlest job of applying the lather. Shorter-lofted, stiffer, and denser brushes don't work well for me; in fact, they seem to be what face-latherers seek.

- Murray

SmallTank · Post by **SmallTank** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:13 pm

meh...depends on preference..sometimes you need to "mash" the brush and sometimes painting is easier..probably how much lather is in the brush itself ...mixed with water of course

Sodapopjones · Post by **Sodapopjones** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:14 pm

I think I might have to agree with Murray on this one actually.

Citing my Vulfix 2197P and Plisson size 12, noticeably less dense brushes with/and or a longer loft preferably seem to work best at this I've noticed.

When I try to use the denser brushes say a Duke 2 or a Rooney Stubby 1, TGN's, it just doesn't want to release the lather, it needs to be swirled a bit then "Painted" on.

Araner · Post by **Araner** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:35 pm

With my Omega 49 boar brush circular is the way to go.

With my Savile Row badger brushes, painting has the best results.

And, what does this all mean? Beats the hell out of me!

Mike

Churchill · Post by **Churchill** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:19 pm

I massage on the first pass and paint on the second pass. I don't feel like I need to massage on the second pass since my beard has already softened.

Teiste · Post by **Teiste** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:56 pm

CMur12 wrote:Hi Mark -

My experience has been just the opposite, assuming that by "massaging" you mean the circular motions that most seem to use for face-lathering.

I lather in a bowl and paint the finished product onto a very wet beard because my skin doesn't tolerate on-site lathering. For me, a tall loft with medium density and easy flex does the most efficient job of lathering in a bowl and the gentlest job of applying the lather. Shorter-lofted, stiffer, and denser brushes don't work well for me; in fact, they seem to be what face-latherers seek.

- Murray

The same here.But I will also say that fan shaped ones works better with circular motion,while bulb shaped ones works better with painting strokes.

JPDyson · Post by **JPDyson** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:21 pm

Teiste wrote:But I will also say that fan shaped ones works better with circular motion,while bulb shaped ones works better with painting strokes.

Definitely something to this; pretty much explains the absence of bulb knots in my stable. I like the massage, and doing that with stiff, bulbous knots is very uncomfortable.

jww · Post by **jww** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:27 pm

Mark - I always am amazed at the level of detail you bring out from such a simple joy as shaving. Your research is greatly appreciated but this woolfat evangelist.

woodsrider · Post by **woodsrider** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:33 pm

Irrespective of loft shape, I find that some circular motions are helpful to initially get the lather to "pop." Thereafter, I use mainly painting motions with perhaps a few circular motions thrown in as necessary for lather generation.

I have never noticed whether loft shape (i.e., fan vs. bulb) matters.

Nitrox · Post by **Nitrox** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:38 pm

I've also found the opposite to be true. Long haired 'floppy' brushes work better for me by painting the lather, and short denser brushes give me better scrubbing and 'massaging' action.

marsos52 · Post by **marsos52** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:14 pm

respective of loft shape, I find that some circular motions are helpful to initially get the lather to "pop." Thereafter, I use mainly painting motions with perhaps a few circular motions thrown in as necessary for lather generation.

i paint to load my brush as well as to lather my face,, i only massage or do cirucular motion is and when i want the lather to be more airrated or thicker so to speak..

i use a rooney 1/1 in super or my beloved emillion

so i go with the quoted above

marc[/quote]

John Parker · Post by **John Parker** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:20 pm

I had understood that the painting recommendation was from brushmakers and designed to make the brush last longer; and had nothing to do with the actual lather. Never have figured out how one loads a brush well with painting motions on the puck, though, but must admit I haven't tried. As to actually putting it on my face, I have to actual think about not using a circular motion. Have best luck painting with longer lofts and using circular motions with the shorter, denser lofts.

Craig_From_Cincy · Post by **Craig_From_Cincy** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:30 pm

Churchill wrote:I massage on the first pass and paint on the second pass. I don't feel like I need to massage on the second pass since my beard has already softened.

I do much the same thing. I massage the lather into my beard in a circular motion on my initial pass, and paint in the following passes.

jww wrote:Mark - I always am amazed at the level of detail you bring out from such a simple joy as shaving. Your research is greatly appreciated but this woolfat evangelist.

+100 to that!! Your videos have been of great help to me over the years.

Dave_D · Post by **Dave_D** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:41 pm

The type of brush used hasnt had much affect on my lathering style, always face lather starting with swirl scrub, finishing with paint motion. Floppers dont work well for me so it has directed my preferences toward smaller brushes with more backbone.

drumana · Post by **drumana** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:55 pm

I use both massaging and painting motions with all my brushes, regardless of size or loft shape.

gil3591 · Post by **gil3591** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:36 pm

the type of soap/cream i use determines the brush, to an extent. but the technique remains the same

giammi · Post by **giammi** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:48 am

I also noticed the opposite.

Having said that, I did not change my routine in regard to what type of brush I use.

I always start with a rotary, massaging motion and then finish with painting.

fallingwickets · Post by **fallingwickets** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:03 am

very very much appreciate your efforts to make a veee Dee Ohh about this. I cant wait to watch it, for I am extremely skeptical of the 'painters'

clive

Zot! · Post by **Zot!** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:56 am

Short, dense knots are made for scrubbing. They give the feel and also need the extra work for flow. You don't have to work hard for the scrub.

Bulb vs fan shape is another issue. Bulbs need the extra pressure to get more lather onto the face. It also feels like more scrub because of the outer, shorter hairs that give support. Bulbs have a nice suction and provide more control for applying the lather.

The soft longer knots are for the painting but need to be squeezed at the base of the knot if you want some scrub, which makes it more messy.

Two bands tend to be bulbs, have spring to the loft and good flow-though for a great combination.