Straight razors and "pull"

[MOSES]

I keep seeing here and there references to the term pull. I'm pretty sure I know what it means. That tugging of the blade on the hair, rather than just gliding through like a hot knife through butter.

And I keep seeing comments along the lines of "it's time to hone the razor when it starts to pulling, even after stropping." I would think, though, that a straight would always pull some? Does this really mean "when it starts to pull more?"

My basis for saying this is that I find, even with full out prep, hot water, shower, even hair conditioner I still get pull. And this is with DE blades, which surely are not less sharp? Even feathers. Maybe, just maybe, in some areas, going with the grain, with a feather (Super Pro or DE) or swede, I don't feel a pull.

-Mo

[LX_Emergency]

A little pull is normal....when it starts to become uncomfortable, that's when it needs to be rehoned.

[MOSES]

Aha, that's kinda what I figured. I just see references sometimes that seem to be implying no pull.... I always wonder if the person has a really light beard, or is just using the term "no" loosely. I usually assume the latter.

-Mo

[mparker762]

Everything pulls, even Feather DE and AC blades. It's just a matter of how much the razor pulls and how much you are willing to tolerate.

[bernards66]

MO, I'm sure that everything 'pulls' some. But with good DE blades or Injectors, it's so slight that I'm not really aware of it, except on the against the grain cut, on the upper neck. But, by comparison, those straights I had pulled like the dickens, even with the grain, on the first pass. I am convinced that full-time traditional open razor shavers are simply used to it, and so it doesn't bother them. After 40+ years of DEs though, it drove me nuts.
Regards,
Gordon

[mparker762]

I don't think it's just a matter of straight shavers getting used to it. I switched from DE to straights and never experienced anything like what you're describing. Straights definitely pulled more, but we're talking mach 3 or fusion levels of pull, nothing unpleasant. I still shave with the DE and even the Fusion on occasion, so I hope I'm reasonably well calibrated to differing levels of pull.

I know you've mentioned that your razors were honed by lynn, but even lynn isn't perfect. It's also quite possible you damaged the edge while stropping. anytime I get "pulling like the dickens" it means the razor is dull dull dull.

However, you've been shaving with a DE an awfully long time and get great results with it, so straights aren't likely to be much of an improvement over your current setup anyway even if everything works perfectly.

[JohnP]

I do think pull is a relative term.
Gordon, sounds like you got some bad ones; sometimes even from someone considered a honemeister an edge just will not feel right on one's own face. In my cartridge days I could never use Schick razors without extreme discomfort, probably edge geometry. Yet I know they are sharp. My Dovo Bismarck as well as Dovo Special shaved smoother (no pull-it was like using a squeegee) out of the box than my slant loaded with my (first and maybe last) feather. Unfortunately I'm also humble enough to admit that I do not always get my own edges this smooth shaving. They will look pristine under a microscope, hanging hairs will pop when brought near the edge...and the shave will still not always be so smooth. When I do get one where I like it I stop messing with it.
Personally, I hone when I cannot make the blade shave COMFORTABLY without just stropping. When I get the razor back to where I want it, it then becomes a prized possession, to be guarded and stropped only gently, so as to keep it in the shape I like it.
Sorry for rambling,
Just some thoughts.
John P.

[CRR]

.... But, by comparison, those straights I had pulled like the dickens, even with the grain, on the first pass. I am convinced that full-time traditional open razor shavers are simply used to it, and so it doesn't bother them. After 40+ years of DEs though, it drove me nuts.
Regards,
Gordon

IMO, this is due to the razor not being keen enough. If the str8 is well honed, it may pull slightly more than a DE, but very little in my experience. Most guys don't spend enough time to learn how to properly strop, let alone hone the razor. You can screw up the edge of a straight with a just a few wrong strokes on the strop. I did it when I first started and it took a while to get it right. Once you have the razor nice and sharp, there should be no discomfort with shaving.

[MOSES]

On a related topic. The hanging hair test. So you just take a stray hair, hold it between two fingers, and move the blade against it a little ways out from where you are holding it, straight, no slicing motion, and the hair is suppose to pop in two?

I tried this last night with my Feather AC. To my surprise I couldn't get it to work, unless there was a little speed behind the razor, or I was right next to my finger (like 1/16" out). Granted, it was not a totaly fresh blade as I have just shaved with it.

-Mo

[JohnP]

Actually the method I prefer, after one of the other guys on SRP attempted surgical removal of a thumb in this way, is to hold the razor, edge up, and simply pass the hair down onto the blade. It should pop instantly. The REALLY sharp ones don't even make a sound, the hair just falls in two. Usually you can sortof hear a little pinking sound as the hair pops. I tried to take a picture of the process for the first razor I ever sold (well...I've sold 2 so far...I'm too much of a hoarder...)

Hope this helps.
John P

[mparker762]

The HHT doesn't work for everybody's hair. It doesn't for mine, not with the feather blade, or my own, or with edges from Randy, Joe, or Robert W. Haven't tried a Lynn blade yet.

I test with my arm hair, especially the softer hairs near my wrist. If it doesn't seem to be doing anything until you notice the hairs littering the top surface of the blade, then it's good to go

[EL Alamein]

The HHT should be performed with the root of the hair hanging down and the tip pointing up. The blade should be horizontal or with the edge pointing down slightly. When the edge goes through the hair WITHOUT making a noise it's shave ready. But as pointed out before you could have an overhoned edge that passes this test but fails to shave. We all get them, it is a fact of straight shaving. Even some industrial blades fall victim to this, though not nearly as often due to precision methods.

When you get it right the shave should cut like a knife through soft butter. There is always resistance - not pull. Every blade encounters resistence, the straight's mechanical operation exacerbates it while safety razors minimize it. With a straight you are pushing the blade, with a safety you are pulling a blade - two different actions with two different feedback feelings. I think some people mistake resistence for pull. Pull is experienced when the hair feels like it's being tugged while it's being shaved. That's when you know its time to send it back to the hone. All this is just one man's opinion (mine) but hopefully it will help clarify some of the questions some may have. Hope it helps.

Chris

[mparker762]

I think some people mistake resistence for pull. Pull is experienced when the hair feels like it's being tugged while it's being shaved

We're arguing definitions. The difference between what you are calling "mechanical resistance" and what you call "pulling" is a matter of degree, not of kind, though it probably makes sense to ascribe different terms to the two extremes just to reduce the sort of confusion we're seeing in this thread.

Maybe "tugging" for the lower extreme and "pulling" for the upper extreme?

[EL Alamein]

I think some people mistake resistence for pull. Pull is experienced when the hair feels like it's being tugged while it's being shaved

We're arguing definitions. The difference between what you are calling "mechanical resistance" and what you call "pulling" is a matter of degree, not of kind, though it probably makes sense to ascribe different terms to the two extremes just to reduce the sort of confusion we're seeing in this thread.

Maybe "tugging" for the lower extreme and "pulling" for the upper extreme?

My distinction is to point out what I think some people are confusing and calling "pull". It's pretty simple if you think about it. Pulling is experienced in the whisker, resistence is experienced at the blade handle. I agree there are degrees of resistence (however minute) and they are related to how sharp the blade is but one need not experience pull when experiencing resistence. No blade is immune to resistence but keen razors do not pull. Hope that clarifies it.

Chris

[Joe Lerch]

I would think, though, that a straight would always pull some?

Absolutely!

It's physically impossible to cut without there being a pull. Of course, based on the hanging hair test, the bending resistance of a hair is enough. But, if yo multiply that by a few hundred hairs it becomes significant. Str8 shavers don't realize it, but a shaving sharp razor has a slight pull, and it has enough abrasion to do some exfolliation. Newbies with sensitive skin sometimes complain about it, ut you get used to it in a short time and then don't notice.

A DE has a noticeably lesser pull (but again not zero). If you don't apply pressure, the weight of most DEs exceeds the pull, so you don't noticee it. With Feathers, it's even less, because they're so sharp. An impressive demonstration is to shave with an aggressive razor like a slant using a Merkur blade and then using a Feather. The razor seems to be transformed from sharp to smooth, and you can shave with the lightest touch.

So, the answer to your question is, when you notice an increased pull you refresh. If you've overused a DE blade you'll get a similar indication.

[Joe Lerch]

MO, I'm sure that everything 'pulls' some. But with good DE blades or Injectors, it's so slight that I'm not really aware of it, except on the against the grain cut, on the upper neck. But, by comparison, those straights I had pulled like the dickens, even with the grain, on the first pass. I am convinced that full-time traditional open razor shavers are simply used to it, and so it doesn't bother them. After 40+ years of DEs though, it drove me nuts.
Regards,
Gordon

There's a lot of truth to this, but much of that pull goes away in time. It's just a matter of getting your hand trained. Like everything else, it takes time.

Of course, guys like you and me are at a disadvantage. We're so used to a smooth comfortable shave that we no longer have the patience for it.

Have you tried a Feather str8? It feels a lot more like a DE.

[Joe Lerch]

I tried this last night with my Feather AC. To my surprise I couldn't get it to work, unless there was a little speed behind the razor, or I was right next to my finger

Don't feel bad. I've never ben able to make the test work, and I have razors from every honemeister. I'm fair haired, and it's just to fine. I had o learn the thumb test.

A test that's a little easier is to cut forearm hair. If you watch caefully you can see hairs being quietly decapitated.

[Joe Lerch]

I think some people mistake resistence for pull.

Pull is the hairs reaction to the resistance. The resistance increases with the area of contact, so the sharper edge has less. Also, the sharper edge will sever the hair rather than engaging it frictionally.

[Joe Lerch]

resistence is experienced at the blade handle.

You may feel it at the handle, but it occurs because of frictional contact between the blade and the hair. As the blade dulls the area of contact increases, and so does the frictional resistance. When it gets great enough, the hair sticks and gets pulled. You feel it in the handle, and the pulling hairs are the equal and opposite reaction.

[bernards66]

mparker, Well, that thought has crossed my mind, and it's certainly possible. Obviously, I'm not very experianced at stropping, although I was being careful to avoid the well known pitfalls, and was being very careful. Still, I might have impaired the edge, or failed to get it properly stropped. Two of the three razors I had, had been honed very recently by experianced gents, and both were made by T-I. It is true that the one honed by Lynn seemed to pull a little less. I suppose that I'll not know for sure, unless someone hands me an expertly honed, just stropped razor ( which I hope happens some time, like if I ever get up to Nova Scotia and drop in on our good doctor ). I hope I have not over dramatized it, but, yeah, they pulled considerably more then a Mach 3.
Regards,
Gordon