What I don't understand

Thoughts and input on anything related to wet shaving or men's grooming.
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baldchin
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Post by baldchin » Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:08 pm

Prairie wrote: As I was standing looking at it, an older gentleman in his 70's came by and picked one up and threw it in his cart. Ack! Why sir, why?
Och! Why not?
I don't intend to purchase one - and there's a question-mark whether it'll actually be released in europe. But I don't see why someone shouldn't be curious just because they are 70. My father bought a Mach3 Turbo with 2 Free blades!!! He's 75, he liked it, but once the blades were gone the handle went in the handle storage washbag with all the rest. (Like father like son).

Now he mostly uses electric. Why? He views an electric razor as a sort of luxury item and now he can afford to indulge himself. When we (my sisters and I) were growing up he mostly indulged us, and as a working man he didn't have much money. For the record he seems to get a pretty good shave from it to.
Will

If it's smokin' it's cookin', when it's black it's done.

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DEF
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Post by DEF » Tue Jan 31, 2006 7:27 pm

We will expect Chris' next straight-razor shaving primer to include a section on shaving with a Thiers-Issard tucked between each and every finger, which will be the straight-shaving equivalent of the Mach 3 or -- for the truly ambitious -- the Quattro. It would seem that by rolling one's fingers in just the right way, one could achieve a very close shave, indeed. An "Edward Issard Hands," if you will. :lol:
Doug

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Joe Lerch
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Post by Joe Lerch » Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:30 pm

drmoss_ca wrote:
Joe Lerch wrote:As for what Chris says, you can sneer all you want, <snip>
Thanks for the permission, Joe.
It's interesting how you can take things out of context and totally change their meaning and intent. Do you really think what I said had anything to do with giving anyone permission?
Joe

FrancisDeSales
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Post by FrancisDeSales » Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:27 am

Can I just express suprise that, with all the talk of "capturing shelf space" and "oneupmanship" and "money makes the world go round" (all of which essentially boils down to exploiting one's fellow human beings in a most egregious fashion) that no one, not one single soul, has suggested that perhaps the whole damnable system (corporate capitalism<emphasis on "corporate">, not the Fusion Shaving System) needs to be razed to the ground so we can start all over again?

I know that when I do something for money, whether at work or making a thing for sale to another person in my workshop, my first goal is to provide them with a good value and something they truly need. I assume all the men of good will who post here feel similarly. Why then, are we not aghast at what we see in Gillette, and Schick (and Microsoft and "Bob's House of Boob Enlargement and Botulism Injections" franchises for that matter)?
"The Catholic Church is like a thick steak, a glass of red wine, and a good cigar."
[GK Chesterton].

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rustyblade
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Post by rustyblade » Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:53 am

Nobody will win. If Schick goes bankrupt or whatever, Gillette is a monopoly and will be then be hand-tied. Its sort of like Microsoft and Apple maybe 5 years ago. It was in Microsoft's best interest to keep Apple alive or else the anti-trust would have been a lot worse. MS even invested in Apple (and made a tidy profit). Microsoft have to keep coming out with new Windows/Office versions to make people spend money. They also have planned obsolescence.

Look at it this way: Gillette is Microsoft, Schick is Apple (ok Apple actually has good products unlike Schick). The long bearded Unix gurus are the straight razor guys (ok, the bearded part and shaving doesn't make sense), and the DE users are the pasty Linux geeks jumping up and down saying: "Linux is easy to use, you just have to text edit the fstab.config and .networking file in /etc/rc.2/ after recompiling your kernel. Its so easy! We are going to convert the entire world!"
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CRR
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Post by CRR » Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:54 am

FrancisDeSales wrote:Can I just express suprise that, with all the talk of "capturing shelf space" and "oneupmanship" and "money makes the world go round" (all of which essentially boils down to exploiting one's fellow human beings in a most egregious fashion) that no one, not one single soul, has suggested that perhaps the whole damnable system (corporate capitalism<emphasis on "corporate">, not the Fusion Shaving System) needs to be razed to the ground so we can start all over again?

I know that when I do something for money, whether at work or making a thing for sale to another person in my workshop, my first goal is to provide them with a good value and something they truly need. I assume all the men of good will who post here feel similarly. Why then, are we not aghast at what we see in Gillette, and Schick (and Microsoft and "Bob's House of Boob Enlargement and Botulism Injections" franchises for that matter)?
No one forces anyone to buy these razors or anything else from the store shelves for that matter. Who's the more foolish, the fool, or the fool who follows him.
Chris.

Steady Boy, Steady!

FrancisDeSales
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Post by FrancisDeSales » Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:44 pm

So every dime I can squeeze from the mentally handicapped and the demented is mine by right, because its their own fault for being weak?

The question isn't who's more foolish, it's who does more evil. There's little harm in being foolish, until the man who isn't exploits that foolishness. And that's precisely what we (as in you and I) are talking about, exploiting the weakness of other human beings for material gain. Its a disgusting thing, even more than obfuscation for the sake of the cover-up.
"The Catholic Church is like a thick steak, a glass of red wine, and a good cigar."
[GK Chesterton].

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Pauldog
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Post by Pauldog » Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:08 pm

But think how much merit there is in teaching the foolish to defend themselves from the predatory!

Gillette has failed big-time more than once in their past. The most recent one I can think of is the Techmatic band razor. It's possible they made a profit from it, but it lasted only a few years. They even had a vibrating version, the Orbitor 4000. What's funny is that Schick made their own version, which also went away before too long. Schick was clever; their version did not take Gillette blade cartridges, but their blades fit the Techmatic.

The reason DE blades are so universal is that the patents expired on all those weird slots and notches cut into the middle of the blade. Current DE blades should fit virtually any DE razor. My 1941 Gillette Ranger Tech needs the small vertical slots near the far ends of the blade.

cmoore
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Post by cmoore » Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:31 pm

FrancisDeSales wrote:The question isn't who's more foolish, it's who does more evil. There's little harm in being foolish, until the man who isn't exploits that foolishness. And that's precisely what we (as in you and I) are talking about, exploiting the weakness of other human beings for material gain. Its a disgusting thing, even more than obfuscation for the sake of the cover-up.
As a consumer you have the power! Most people are not mentally handicapped or demented. Capitalism assumes that consumers actively seek out and choose superior product based upon their evaluation of their own needs.

Gilette is not cheating you, and they are not evil. Gilette came up with a clever way to improve the razor (it is esier to shave with a safety or an M3 than with a str8), and insures a steady stream of income through a proprietary component.

Don't like it? Don't use it. I was being burned by the high price and low quality of the Gilette shaving products, so, as a consumer, I took my dollar elsewhere.

People who buy Gilette products are not dumb, they have simply made a different choice as a consumer.

FrancisDeSales
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Post by FrancisDeSales » Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:08 pm

But think how much merit there is in teaching the foolish to defend themselves from the predatory!
Probably more than can be comprehended!!!
As a consumer you have the power! Most people are not mentally handicapped or demented. Capitalism assumes that consumers actively seek out and choose superior product based upon their evaluation of their own needs.

Gilette is not cheating you, and they are not evil. Gilette came up with a clever way to improve the razor (it is esier to shave with a safety or an M3 than with a str8), and insures a steady stream of income through a proprietary component.
I'm not railing against the DE, which is indeed an improvement over the straight, for the average man, even if the morality of its genesis is dubious. And I am not railing against capitalism, which is why I stressed the "corporate" part of my comment. And Gillette can't be evil since it isn't a moral actor, but rather a legal fiction. And the guy who dreamed up this Fusion, in order to crush the competition and bilk the consumer out of an extra fifty cents per cartridge isn't evil either, as I do not believe human beings can be evil. But I still submit he has done an evil thing.

(And that you misunderstood me completely.)
"The Catholic Church is like a thick steak, a glass of red wine, and a good cigar."
[GK Chesterton].

Joey
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Post by Joey » Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:53 pm

I can't see the Fusion being a big success, unless it offers a superior shave to the M3, which I'm guessing it doesn't. Obviously, the M3 is a different monster than the Sensor razors, but the Fusion design seems pretty much the same as the M3 with the addition of some extra blades.

Most people I know use M3 blades. Between my 2 brothers, dad, and a few friends, none of them have even stepped up to the M3Power. Why? They're not going to pay the prices for the replacement blades and saw the vibrating razor as a gimmick, yet they still think the M3 is a good razor. I can pretty much guarantee you they won't even consider the Fusion due to the prices.

I think the biggest reason the Fusion will fail is due to the prices of the blades. Sure, some guys will dish out the money, but when you keep increasing prices, you begin to limit your market. Not everyone can afford Fusion blades, and I'm sure many can't even afford M3 blades. I have a friend who buys Bic disposables because he thinks there's better things to spend his money on. It reminds me of real estate. It's nice to be able to buy a large, fancy, expensive home, but once you decide to sell it, the sale becomes harder because you have smaller market that can afford to buy your home.

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Brett G
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Post by Brett G » Wed Feb 01, 2006 6:42 pm

So every dime I can squeeze from the mentally handicapped and the demented is mine by right, because its their own fault for being weak?

The question isn't who's more foolish, it's who does more evil. There's little harm in being foolish, until the man who isn't exploits that foolishness. And that's precisely what we (as in you and I) are talking about, exploiting the weakness of other human beings for material gain. Its a disgusting thing, even more than obfuscation for the sake of the cover-up.
I don’t see what any of this has to do with morals. Spare us the lecture on evil corporations. Ours is a capitalist society, and though it is by no means perfect, it is the best political and economic system devised so far. Provided the product or service is legal, a person or company has the right to sell whatever to whomever. Just because someone doesn’t have the income or education doesn’t mean you can’t take their money. Our economy is based on supply and demand. A merchant should not have to feel bad about himself for marketing and selling his product per the rules. The onus is on the consumer in a free society. Don’t expect anyone to hold your hand. Get informed and make the decision for yourself. This board and others like it are the ultimate expression of that idea. It is not society’s responsibility to dumb down every little thing for every special interest that feels victimized (and don’t they all?)

I used to work in the bail bonds business. It is a business that is completely legal and ethical. Many people do not want to work in the industry because it has an intrinsically dirty feel to it. You are profiting from the activities of criminals and you don’t actually make your money from the criminals themselves but rather their families. You are taking advantage of people who are in a bad situation who feel they have no alternative. If you don’t want to participate for moral reasons, that’s up to you, but it is not your place to pass judgment on those who chose to supply a legal demand and profit from it.

As a wet shaver I feel that the Fusion is ridiculous and unnecessary. I did buy one and must admit that, for a cartridge razor, it worked very well. If I were a cartridge shaver I would probably continue to use it. As a Shavegeek I pay attention to the entire shaving industry. I get annoyed watching Gillette and Schick play these stupid games at the expense of the shaving public, but you know what, it is the shaving public who needs to be smarter. Gillette and Schick are simply playing by the rules.

Sorry for the rant but I lose patience with people who take the moral high ground in a legitimate discussion that has nothing to do with morals. If enough people feel the way you do then the laws will change. Until then, play by the rules as best you can and don’t bitch about those who play the game better than you do.

Like Sgt. Hulka said, “Lighten up Francis"
Brett

Prairie
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Post by Prairie » Wed Feb 01, 2006 7:48 pm

Image
Image

Definitely didn't pull any punches on the display, that's for sure.

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Post by obsessis » Wed Feb 01, 2006 8:20 pm

that is the first time i have seen the face of that razor, it is unbelievable.
joseph

FrancisDeSales
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Post by FrancisDeSales » Wed Feb 01, 2006 9:34 pm

First, I just finished saying that corporations, being legal fictions, cannot be moral actors, and therefore they cannot be evil. Or good for that matter. So spare me the pontificating if you can't even bother to follow what I have written. If you have some sort of learning disability, I'll try to explain things more simply in the future.

But yeah, this is ALL about morals. Introducing a product no one really needs, since the need is already met quite well, in order to increase profit margins is immoral. Treating the aquisition of wealth as the primary concern, rather than the good of your fellow human beings, is immoral. Treating human beings as a source, or a commodity to be manipulated for your own ends, rather than as your equals in dignity, with a concern for their ends, is immoral.

In fact, all immorality can be summed up as one of two things: Treating people as things, and treating things as people. Anytime you do one of those two things, regardless of whatever "right" to do so you might possess, it is a grave evil.

And, for the record, I never said any of you need to even agree. I just expressed suprise that, of all the folks on this forum, no one felt the least bit uncomfortable with what has happened with this thing. Then again, its the selfishness and greed of western man that has ensured that his culture won't survive in any recognisable form for another 200 years, and that that vacuum the west will leave, for better or worse, is being filled by Islam. People so concerned with their rights that they can't even produce replacement numbers in subsequent generations don't really deserve to keep a culture anyway.

As for your "best system ever" boasts, you might be right, if materialism were the lens we view the world through. But I'd say the economic system of 13th century Europe was far better. Or at least the average peasant was far more free than your average wage-slave in a cubicle.

Tell me, are you or do you...

1. the sole or principal owner in the business in which you work?
2. own your own home, without burden of usurious debt?
3. have daily leisure to spend time with your family?
4. the sole 'breadwinner' of the family, so that your wife is able to devote all of her love, talents and energy into your & her home and hearth?
5. able to school your own children?
6. able to afford basic necessities for civilized living, such as good musical instruments for your children?
7. schedule out most of the activities of the day, or are they directed for you, either by bosses or clients?

If you work hard, and answered yes to LESS THAN SEVEN, Then you are
A WAGE-SLAVE. You may call yourself politically free, but you are economically enslaved as a wage-earner to a government or corporate body. Freedom-wise, you are placed BELOW the average 13-century peasant, who possessed all the above!
"The Catholic Church is like a thick steak, a glass of red wine, and a good cigar."
[GK Chesterton].

cmoore
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Post by cmoore » Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:28 pm

I have studdied a bit of Smith, read a bit of Rand, and mulled over a bit of Marx. I wouldn't mind discussing this a bit more, but this really isn't the place.

Before I started with my Murker Classic I probubly would have jumped on board with the Fusion. With my Classic, my shaves have been as close as I like, but with a lot less irritation. I'll never go back! I am looking foreward to trying a str8 when I find one for the right price. If I am going to cut up my face I would rather do it with a real tool than with Gilette's landfill clutter.

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Sam
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Post by Sam » Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:09 am

marx, as in chico, or harpo, lol?

sam

FrancisDeSales
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Post by FrancisDeSales » Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:21 am

I have studdied a bit of Smith, read a bit of Rand, and mulled over a bit of Marx. I wouldn't mind discussing this a bit more, but this really isn't the place.

Was both an objectivist and a vanilla libertarian in my younger days, so I too am familiar with all three. When you also read some Leo XIII, particularly Rerum Novarum, feel free to email me.

Pax
"The Catholic Church is like a thick steak, a glass of red wine, and a good cigar."
[GK Chesterton].

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Brett G
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Post by Brett G » Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:40 am

Pax,
Even if I did have a learning disability, I still wouldn’t need you to protect me from the big bad corporations.

Look, it is inevitable that opinions about the business practices of Gillette and Schick are going to come up in a discussion such as this. You took it to another level and threw in your political views in the hopes of finding some like-minded individuals. You may very well have found one in cmoore, but like he said, this really isn’t the place to discuss it.

It is one of the iron clad laws of life that you can’t please everybody. No matter what the rules are, someone is going to think the game is unfair. Peasants in the 13th century were better off than the average American is today? That is a loser’s lament. Another iron clad law is that society must move forward. You can long for the good old days of the dark ages if you want, but it’s that kind of naivety that is the real learning disorder. Nostalgia is great and a motivation for many gents on this board, but you are detached from reality. Wish in one had, crap in the other, and tell me which fills up first.

It’s guys like you that love to sing the tired old song of how the world is going to hell in a hand-basket. It’s boring, enough already. If we are going to hell in a hand-basket, fine, just wake me up when we get there. And if we do end up back in the 13th century, you can drop me a line via carrier pigeon and brag about how you were right.
Brett

FrancisDeSales
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Post by FrancisDeSales » Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:53 pm

Even if I did have a learning disability, I still wouldn’t need you to protect me from the big bad corporations.
First, my comment regarding learning disability wasn't intended as an insult, but a recognition that many people do, indeed, have debilitating disorders in that vein. I apologise deeply, since you seemed to interpret it as a personal affront. It certainly wasn't my intention. I will try to communicate better in the future.

And I'm not trying to protect you from anything. I'm expressing my own criticism of the actions of particular members of a corporation. Again, I'm sorry if you misunderstood me.
You took it to another level and threw in your political views in the hopes of finding some like-minded individuals. You may very well have found one in cmoore, but like he said, this really isn’t the place to discuss it.
No, I didn't throw in any political opinions. None whatsoever. I threw in my philosophical and theological opinions. There was no politics involved. And I did not do so in hopes of finding likeminded individuals. I did so because I hadn't seen any likeminded individuals, which I specifically expressed in my initial post.

As for the rest of your post, more conjecture. I don't wish to return to the 13th century, I wish to see the 21st century improve. Your use of nebulous phrases such as "society must move forward" leads me to believe that you're just another poorly informed modernist/postmodernist who hasn't done any real thinking on the things that matter. I've been wrong before, but that's what I see from here. And no, society isn't going to hell in a handbasket, in my opinion, society is just what it has always been throughout human history, a debacle. A debacle because human beings are flawed but noble creatures.

But thanks for telling me who I am and what I believe. I don't know what I'd do without enlightened minds like yours.
"The Catholic Church is like a thick steak, a glass of red wine, and a good cigar."
[GK Chesterton].

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