Soaps - Palm Oil

[RazorRamone]

I was flipping through a Reader's Digest from last year that highlighted the plight of orangutans due to the devastation of Indonesia's jungle.

In large part, palm-oil production is responsible for unsustainable deforestation practices in the jungle. The article mentioned that 78 square kilometres of jungle (Indonesia alone!) are destroyed every day, mainly as a result of the palm-oil industry.

Tallow needs to become more acceptable in soap making and cosmetics once again as it is a far more sustainable ingredient than palm oil.

Sorry to all the animal by-product hippies that have cursed our tallow shaving soap products. Tallow was - and remains - a better option than palm-oil.

(Stepping down from my "soap box"...)

RR

[Rufus]

Hear, hear. It's ironic that the animal-product people would object to this when the alternative is driving animals to extinction; I guess the rules of logic don't apply to certain members of our society.

[fallingwickets]

out of curiosity, how much palm oil is used for soaps etc Vs. food additive product?

thanks

clive

[brothers]

That's a real good question Clive. I think a lot of it goes into foods, but I might be wrong, since I'm just going on a hunch.

[RazorRamone]

out of curiosity, how much palm oil is used for soaps etc Vs. food additive product?

thanks

clive

I too would assume that food additives would represent a larger portion. That said, the cosmetics industry is huge too.

The article states that palm-oil represents half of the world's internationally traded vegetable oil.

[bernards66]

I think that Chris Fisher ( or some other member ) looked into this once. There are a number of wide spread uses for palm oil it turned out, including certain types of fuels. Still, as has been pointed out, the cosmetics industry is large enough that it's contribution to this destruction of rain forests is not insignificant. But this deforestation does not seem to be much talked about. We remain uncertain as to why, for example, almost all the makers of high end bath soaps have switched from tallowate to a palm oil base. Is it pressure, or anticipated pressure, from animal rights activists or is their motive simply financial? We don't know for certain and God knows the soap making firms etc. do not seem eager to inform us.
Regards,
Gordon

[Squire]

Financial and political. I think for most part it's out of sight out of mind since oil producing palms don't grow in Yorkshire or upstate New York.

[malocchio]

Palm fruit oil is expensive,and is an alternative cooking oil.Palm kernel oil is super saturated fat,still legally a vegetable oil however,and in cheap bakery products this is the "palm" oil they are using.Palm kernel oil is what gives soap that great thick lather,but sadly,it is used to plug arteries more than soap use today...

[brothers]

I found this article:

Understanding Palm Oil: The Pros and Cons of Palm Oil

“Palm oil may be a booming global commodity. But economists and environmentalists remain sharply divided over whether the oil helps slow global warming or is in fact a major climate killer.”

Pros:
•Palm Oil generates 10 times the amount of energy that it consumes.
•It is said that palm oil can help to reduce poverty since it generates returns of over $3,000 per hectare vs. $100 for conventional agriculture.
•Researchers believe that the high antioxidant of red palm oil makes it a natural weapon against cancer.
•Palm oil makes excellent cooking oil and doesn't lose valuable nutrients when it’s heated.
•Palm oil is a source for biofuels and bio diesel used for power plants and other renewable energy purposes throughout the world.
•Palm fruit is rich in vitamins, antioxidants, and other phytonutrients.

Cons:
•Since palm oil is in such high demand, rainforests the size of 5 football fields disappear every minute.
•Rain forests are being eroded to make way for palm oil plantations.
•83% of the world’s palm oil is produced in Indonesia and Malaysia meaning in 15 years 98% of their rainforests will disappear because of deforestation.
•When palm oil forests are cleared large amounts of carbon dioxide is released making Indonesia the 3rd largest emitter of carbon dioxide in the world.

[malocchio]

http://www.differencebetween.net/object ... ernel-oil/

[Squire]

Certainly these are matters to consider but I'm less concerned with the oil than the deforestation that precedes its production.

[malocchio]

100% On that Squire...I have seen the Tanzanian government start selling massive amounts of locally produced sunflower oil to the bio-diesel companies...In a few short years sunflower oil,the cooking staple oil for most Tanzanians,went from $5 or $6 usd per gallon to $35 per gallon.....I was shocked...The locals can barely feed themselves let alone take a hit like that.What ends up happening is they will use the oil over and over until it is so super saturated with trans-fat and carcinogens,that their meals become carcinogenic....A sad case,happening in many places all over the Earth.

[JRTASTER]

100% On that Squire...I have seen the Tanzanian government start selling massive amounts of locally produced sunflower oil to the bio-diesel companies...In a few short years sunflower oil,the cooking staple oil for most Tanzanians,went from $5 or $6 usd per gallon to $35 per gallon.....I was shocked...The locals can barely feed themselves let alone take a hit like that.What ends up happening is they will use the oil over and over until it is so super saturated with trans-fat and carcinogens,that their meals become carcinogenic....A sad case,happening in many places all over the Earth.

A really depressing picture!

[brothers]

So sad. Those who say (above) that palm oil will help eliminate poverty are quite misinformed. Yes, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. The owner gets the $3000 yield from the crop, and the workers do not share in the increased revenues. If anything they are pushed to produce even more of such a valuable crop. Just my two cents. I hope I am wrong about this.

[dosco]

Tallow needs to become more acceptable in soap making and cosmetics once again as it is a far more sustainable ingredient than palm oil.

I'm not convinced that tallow has become unacceptable or has 'fallen out of favor.' While I don't have the article handy (as I recall it was bout mad cow disease and all of the places that prion loaded beef by products could potentially be found), I've read that beef by products are almost entirely utilized for soap, cosmetics, medicine, and food.

Next, if you review the 'Rolling my Own' thread you'll find several interesting things:

1. The 'good tallow' for shave soap has been hydrogenated, thereby converting some of the fatty acids to stearic acid

2. Stearic acid is a vital component of have soap

3. The primary source of stearic in our shave soaps is palm oil

I have tried test pucks of soap without stearic and they suck. You might as well try lathering with ivory soap (based mostly on tallow and coconut oil).

'Tallow shave soap' is not the answer, unless (apparently) it has been hydrogenated. I haven't yet found a source of hydrogenated beef tallow ... if someone has I would be interested in trying it in a soap formulation.

Regards-
Dave

[brothers]

I got this from eHow: What is Hydrogenated Tallow?

Safety

The Food and Drug Administration lists hydrogenated tallow as safe for use in cosmetics and foods. Environmental Working Group's Skin Deep, a cosmetics safety database, says tallow can cause rashes or acne in some people, but government and consumer agencies classify it as generally safe and harmless. Even after concerns over mad cow disease prompted the FDA to restrict the use of some other animal byproducts, the agency said tallow is safe if it's adequately processed and made from approved animal parts.

Concerns

While tallow is safe to use, it's controversial among those with ethical or religious objections to using animal byproducts. McDonald's paid $10 million to vegetarian and religious groups in 2002 after complaints about the tallow coating on its french fries. According to "The New York Times," the chain didn't disclose the animal-fat coating, and consumers wrongly thought the fries were a vegetarian food.

Alternatives

Those who avoid animal-derived tallow look for vegetable tallow, plant oils, petroleum or paraffin in their cosmetics and skin products. Vegetable oils and shortening can also replace tallow in foods.

Read more: http://www.ehow.com/facts_7442723_hydro ... z2tbQZxOfG

[Squire]

Tallow cooked fries could be the next big thing.

[John Parker]

Tallow cooked fries could be the next big thing.

Not sure about "the next big thing" but the current big thing is to cook fries in duck fat. Suppose to be great, but I have not had the opportunity to! try them yet. Hmm...duck tallow! (Think I am off topic!)

[bernards66]

Dave, Well, all I can say is that apparently all the fine tallow based shave and bath soaps I used to use were 'hydrogenated' tallow because they worked great. None of their palm oil based successors that I've tried have been as good. The difference in lather quality was always noticeable and other members who had used various of these soaps also for years noticed it as well. As far as 'skin issues' goes that one can cut both ways apparently. While the govt. source Gary quoted above mentions occasional skin problems or acne with tallow soaps, myself and Chris both noticed a drying or irritating effect from palm oil versions. Personally, I can't seem to get away with using ANY of them as bath soap for any length of time.
Regards,
Gordon

[dosco]

Gordon:
I agree with you that tallow in a shave soap is or can be a good thing. Perhaps I wasn't clear with my post, I wasn't saying anything about 'palm based soap' ... rather, because our good soaps need stearic, it is likely that we'll need palm oil (because purified stearic is derived from palm oil).

For example, if you make soap at home you can readily obtain tallow, coconut oil, and stearic acid. On the other hand, it appears that hydrogenated beef tallow is not readily available.

Cheers-
Dave