Carbonsong C135 steel

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matt321
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Carbonsong C135 steel

Post by matt321 »

TI's Carbonsong C135 steel first made its appearance with the Silverwing LE razor a few years ago. Are the TI new forgings still using the same formula and heat treat as those original issues? I ask because I have an early C135 razor from TI and I have never got more than a "B-" shave from it. Mine is a beautiful razor but has been disappointing in use. I heard rumors that they have made adjustments to the heat treat for the better.
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drmoss_ca
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Post by drmoss_ca »

I can't tell you as all my TI's are the older Sheffield lead-hardened steel. They are b*st*rds to hone, but they certainly shave wonderfully well when they do get sharp. I can only hope the new stuff is as good.

Chris
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Post by EL Alamein »

Matt, I've had a few of these pass through my hands over the years. I've not heard that TI has changed anything but I can't say I've been actively tracking such info either. Like Dr. Moss I have a fleet of TI's but they're all the older historical models that were lead-hardened. I'm extremely happy with them and have little interest in something new (OK, maybe one or two new razors but that's it!).

All the carbonsong TI's I've seen are even harder to hone than the historicals but they take a nice keen edge. If you're just getting "B" shaves from one it may need more work.

Chris
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Post by drmoss_ca »

Bet I could interest you in a seven day set of 6/8 Eagles...

Chris
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Post by EL Alamein »

drmoss_ca wrote:Bet I could interest you in a seven day set of 6/8 Eagles...

Chris
Like offering crack to an addict. :lol:

Chris
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matt321
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Re: Carbonsong C135 steel

Post by matt321 »

matt321 wrote:TI's Carbonsong C135 steel first made its appearance with the Silverwing LE razor a few years ago. Are the TI new forgings still using the same formula and heat treat as those original issues? I ask because I have an early C135 razor from TI and I have never got more than a "B-" shave from it. Mine is a beautiful razor but has been disappointing in use. I heard rumors that they have made adjustments to the heat treat for the better.
OK, I gave it another try but this time I taped the spine before honing. I gave it about 20 gentle, slightly rolling strokes on 1-micron diamond film on glass with a paper layer between the film and glass. I soaked the paper and film and put just a bit of SoftSoap on the film to keep the water from beading.

Now it is shaving better, at least a B+. I think my problem is getting used to the very hard steel. Taping the spine seemed worthwhile since I had noticed chipping of the edge in past honing sessions. Also, the spine seems softer than the edge and I was beginning to see some spine wear. I will keep it in service and see how the edge holds up and how it responds to stropping. I'll stick to the leather for now and avoid the canvas until later.
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Post by crankymoose »

So far I got at least 5 new c135's and at least that many of the older models :oops: , the new TI's do seem harder and shave to me more stiffer much less flex unlike some of the older TI's which I hope that makes sense as best way I could describe it but anyhow I am actually preferring them over the older TI's with the exception of my 2 TIPTLES which are in a class of there own.
Jim
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matt321
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Post by matt321 »

crankymoose wrote:I am actually preferring them over the older TI's with the exception of my 2 TIPTLES which are in a class of there own.
Wow! Nice stable. 8)
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Post by drmoss_ca »

I still have a few TI's on the wall of shame:
seven 6/8 Eagles
two 7/8 Eagles
four 5/8 SuperGnomes
three 6/8 SuperGnomes
two or three L'Evide Sonnant 6/8 (can't recall if I gave away one or two)
three 4/8 Petit Francais (four given away)
one 5/8 Special Coiffeur
one 5/8 damascus
one 7/8 damascus (only five made!)
one SRP special
one Pierre Thiers historical 5/8
one LeGrelot
one buffalo horn, with covered tang (NLA, like the Spartacus)

Anyway, that's all I can recall from home. About the time I discovered good damascus I stopped collecting them.

Chris
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Post by matt321 »

sacre bleu
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crankymoose
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Post by crankymoose »

After thinking about it imho all my older TI's each one and I even have 2 6/8" alike it seems each one has there own personality and shaves just a tad different not that it is necessarily a bad thing but with the new ones they seem much more consistent almost identical shaving, I would say if you like or dislike one of the new c135's your opinion most likely won't change at all with another one of them particularly in same size.
Jim
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Re: Carbonsong C135 steel

Post by drmoss_ca »

Waking up an old thread!

I recalled there was a change in TI steel, and wanted to look into it. A search for 'carbonsong' led me to https://vintagebladesllc.com/pages/straight-razor-info and this remarkable statement:
Screen Shot 2020-06-06 at 2.35.15 PM.jpg
Screen Shot 2020-06-06 at 2.35.15 PM.jpg (425.14 KiB) Viewed 8819 times
They seem to be saying there is no difference between the old 'silver steel' (cough, cough - no silver) and the new 'C135 carbonsong'. Is this true, or are they talking through their arse? All my TI's are ⩾15 years old, so none are of the putatively new era. Or do they mean that razors sold these days as 'silver steel' are made from C135 just as the rest of the line are?

Did a bit more poking around. C135 is definitely new, so I'd assume any razor marked 'silver steel' these days is the same as any other TI without that mark. It's HRC62-64, so not any harder to hone than a Zowada. The old razors that were marked 'silver steel' did not have silver in them (there was a process invented by Michael Faraday for alloying silver with steel which led to the use of 'silver steel' as a marketing term before the Trades Descriptions Act) and I suspect they are at a sweet spot in terms of hardness vs edge. Not so easy to hone as a Dovo, but capable of a far sweeter edge.
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Re: Carbonsong C135 steel

Post by drmoss_ca »

Waking the dead once again.

I contacted Thiers Issard/Sabatier and asked:
drmoss_ca wrote:I have been collecting and using TI razors for twenty years, and I have some very special ones (8/8 damascus limited edition from 2005, and the Pierre Thiers Hand-Forged, a seven day set of 6/8 Eagles and so on). I have a question about steels, though, and I hope you will be kind enough to answer it. Most of my TI razors date from the days of "Sheffield Silver Steel" and this is a very hard steel, which takes time to hone to perfection. When I get it right, it is wonderful! About 2007, you introduced Silverwing steel, and it was marketed as having a higher carbon content, ~1.35%, I believe. I have never seen this compared, in terms of alloy percentages, with the old silver steel. I have read that some people believe it to be the same steel, but with a new name. Can you throw any light on this for me, please?
I ask now as I have been going through my Super Gnomes (four 5/8, and two 6/8). My oldest 5/8 has a stamped tang, and the younger ones have the tang laser-etched. I find the old one takes a finer edge than the younger ones. I think the 6/8 Super Gnomes came out much later than the 5/8 (maybe my book on straight razors which suggested the 5/8 Super Gnome as the ideal beginner's razor had something to do with that?) Are the 6/8 Super Gnomes silver steel, or did they come out only in the silverwing era?
I hope someone can take the time to help me with these questions. I don't want any industrial secrets(!), just to understand my collection a bit better.
Thank you,
As you can see, my memory failed me in the name of the steel. But I got a quick reply from the daughter of the owner:
Marie-Laure wrote:Hello,

Thank you for your email.

Our carbon steel is called C135 and we have been using this steel for many years now for the majority of our razors

Our founder Pierre Thiers used in the 1900s a steel called Jacob Holtzer cast steel. (different from C135 STEEL) We still have some blades with this steel that we sell in a special range called CHATELLERAULT

I believe you have Jacob holtzer cast steel razors in your nice collection !

Regarding the super gnome razors, I do not know much as when my dad took over the company in 1985, super gnome razors were already sold in size 2/8 and 3/8 only.
So 5/8 and 6/8 super gnome razors youhave a quite old.
Our 2/8 and 3/8 super gnome carry the same steel, that is c135.

Hope this will help

Have a very nice day
So I clarified my mistake:
drmoss_ca wrote:Thank you very much for your reply. I made a mistake and used the name 'Silverwing' which were a limited edition of razors sold in America (~2007) using what was then a new (or just with a new name) steel, which was called "Carbonsong." Carbonsong was 1.35% carbon, and my real question is whether this is the same steel as what was previously described as Sheffield Silver Steel, which was lead-hardened? I expect no one uses molten lead any more! The Super Gnomes I have were all bought new in the early 2000's, so I think that they were made more recently.

By the way, the 'cast steel' process invented by Benjamin Huntsman is a fascinating piece of history, and I do have some Sheffield razors from the early 1800's made from it, and they still shave perfectly well. I think only my hand-forged Pierre Thiers historical edition will be made from it, and it is certainly a very hard steel as shown by the amount of honing it takes! The present day CHATELLERAULT razors are made from it too? They are sold here as 'designed by master steel worker Jacob Holtzer' but they are not advertised as being made from a different steel. I shall have to buy one!

Thank you again,
I hope she can say for sure if Carbonsong is just a new name for the old steel. Interesting fact about the cast steel used originally! I'm very, very doubtful it is used in the Chatellerault line these days. Maybe Holtzer's design, but stocks of cast steel lying around? If there were some historical blanks left over I'm sure they would be sold at a high price with some fanfare (like the TIPTLES, which likely were cast steel).

Chris
"Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothèse."
Pierre-Simon de Laplace
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