Why the bias against pastes?

Use a straight. You know it makes sense.
Post Reply
Pointer
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:57 pm

Why the bias against pastes?

Post by Pointer »

Hi

Iv'e noticed on a lot of forums there is a bias of using stropping pastes in razor honing. I have used them for decades and find them an essential tool in the kit. Does anyone know the genesis of this aversion?

Thanks
User avatar
drmoss_ca
Admin
Posts: 10731
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:39 pm

Re: Why the bias against pastes?

Post by drmoss_ca »

I think there is the idea that if you are really skilled with your hones, and/or own the most exotic hones, you won't need to "cheat" with pastes. That might be true for a very few skilled honers, but we mere mortals will use whatever it takes to get the best shaves. The majority of people claiming such purity probably can't hone a razor I'd want to use to cut my hedgerow. For myself, the best shaving edge is far more important than claiming to be a purist or to have honing superpowers. I like pastes. I use pastes. Why the hell not?

C.
"Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothèse."
Pierre-Simon de Laplace
brothers
Posts: 21514
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:18 am
Location: Oklahoma City USA

Re: Why the bias against pastes?

Post by brothers »

I have several pasted strops that I've used off and on for several years. I wasn't aware of a bias, and just figured it was one of those options that some folks use and others don't, for whatever reason.
Gary

SOTD 99%: Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, soaps & creams, synthetic / badger brushes, Colonial General razor, Kai & Schick blades, straight razors any time, Superior 70 aftershave splash + menthol + 444
EL Alamein
Posts: 3102
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:55 pm

Re: Why the bias against pastes?

Post by EL Alamein »

Arthur Boon.

About 16 to 20 years ago he had one of the first well-known websites about straight razor shaving and maintenance. He declared pastes were to be avoided as they degraded the edge (paraphrasing from memory). His site has long since been taken down but archived on some straight razor enthusiast sites.

Arthur's advice was all the rage on the first straight razor forums at that time and I believe it has become, in many instances, the received wisdom that gets retold over and over again.

What pastes in particular he was referring to I don't recall or know but I think many concluded "all of them". He may well have been referring to products produced in the very early years of the 20th century that were gimmicks but we don't know as I can't recall him referencing any in particular.

Nowadays we have paste products of very high quality and much more information about edge formation. Pastes are quite acceptable in this light.

Pastes are just another road to Rome. Have no reservations in experimenting with them and using them. They can produce a superb edge when used correctly.

Chris
User avatar
drmoss_ca
Admin
Posts: 10731
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:39 pm

Re: Why the bias against pastes?

Post by drmoss_ca »

I'll come back with some recommendations, since I was just writing about the need (OK, my need) to use pastes on rubbery Livi stainless Damasteel. These are in order of coarsest to finest, NOT most useful to least.

1. Flexcut Gold. This is not for improving a honed edge. It's for blades you can't hone. It removes a fair bit of metal, but it will work on razors that don't seem to go anywhere on the hones. Or even badly ground razors where the blade geometry is screwed up beyond belief such that only a single point can touch the hone at one time. Many points will touch a flexible strop, and this stuff works like a 4k hone.

2. Dovo/Jemico/Herold Red. Also TI make nice big pots of it. Again, not really a finishing paste, but if a razor needs more than green paste and you don't want to get out the hones or are scared you will mess up what you already have, this will make a basis for proceeding to the good old green stuff.

3. Dovo/Jemico/Herold Green, also TI and various others, including the late lamented HandAmerican Liquid Chrome. Easily the most useful paste of all. As fine, or finer, as the most expensive finishing stones and easier to use.

4. Diamond pastes or sprays, and at this stage in the progression we should be talking about 0.5μ or 0.25μ. I use the TI product. You don't need this, but it does add something to a green chrome edge. Actually, two things; it gets sharper and it irritates more. If I use it, I will always tone down the result with...

5. Dovo/Jemico/Herold Black. You can use this all day, and you won't ever hurt an edge. All you do is slowly remove any tendency for it to bite or irritate. The effect is small, but real.

Shall I mention White (aka Grey) chalk paste, or Yellow tallow? No, OK, but do put white chalk paste on coarser linen strops to fill in the holes in the weave. And do treat your leather with something. I like neat's foot oil best of all. When you rub a lot of that in, it will also make your hand nice and soft for hand-stropping (which is a barber's trick rather than a useful procedure...)

As to what to use them on, there are many choices. Homemade strops of denim. Leather strops. Hanging or paddle strops. Loom strops. Balsa paddles. Bench hones. All can do the job, but I find it easiest to use pastes on paddles with a fine suede surface. These are not the cheapest, but they make life easy. Even then, you will have to maintain your strops as they become loaded with steel particles and dried out paste. Cleaning with GooGone, Swarfega, or other mechanics hand cleanser is the best way to remove the old paste (may need some disposable plastic hand scrubbing brushes too), but then you need to re-moisturise the leather and dress it afresh with more paste. If you just need to dissolve away the top layer of paste and the steel fragments it contains, the Livi trick (turn the subtitles on!) with lighter fluid, gasoline or other organic solvent is effective. Generally, best to use less paste than you expect rather than being over-generous. It's worth exploring all these things, as you will soon realise that whilst Joe Blow over at straightrazorexperts.com claims he gets the world's best shaves with his hand-rubbed exotic limited-production private Javanese quarry stones, you can easily outperform him with your razors in every way except for loudmouthed self-promotion! And having a better and more enjoyable shave is why we are here.
"Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothèse."
Pierre-Simon de Laplace
EL Alamein
Posts: 3102
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:55 pm

Re: Why the bias against pastes?

Post by EL Alamein »

Dr. Moss's post above jarred my memory about the Dovo black paste and sent me off on a hunt for my old stick of it. Couldn't locate it so I ordered it.

I was interested to see if it would calm down my edge once it was at the toothy feeling stage (yet still very sharp). I thought maybe it would smooth out the toothy feel. Used it today on such an edge and no it didn't work. The edge was very sharp but slightly irritating. It did feel different though, not quite toothy but more like it was just too sharp.

I'm hoping that following this a visit to the crox strop will make it mild once again.

I prepped my crox strop by doing the lighter fluid cleaning trick I mentioned in another thread then applied more crox crayon. I stropped on it then cleaned the blade and did a normal stropping routine on linen then leather. We'll see how tomorrow's shave goes.

Chris
User avatar
Henry_L
Posts: 50
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:34 pm
Contact:

Re: Why the bias against pastes?

Post by Henry_L »

Jeweler's rouge has the same color coding. The same or apples and oranges :?:
User avatar
drmoss_ca
Admin
Posts: 10731
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:39 pm

Re: Why the bias against pastes?

Post by drmoss_ca »

Jeweller's rouge is exactly what razor pastes are.

The black paste takes a lot of strokes to show its effect (~80).
"Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothèse."
Pierre-Simon de Laplace
EL Alamein
Posts: 3102
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:55 pm

Re: Why the bias against pastes?

Post by EL Alamein »

Well, today's shave was definitely a lot smoother.

I like the idea that I could follow this pattern as a refresh - black paste followed by green. I'll try to keep this razor going with it and see how long it will last and still comfortably shave.

Chris
Sando
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:28 pm
Location: Orange County, CA

Re: Why the bias against pastes?

Post by Sando »

Pointer wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 4:08 pm Hi

Iv'e noticed on a lot of forums there is a bias of using stropping pastes in razor honing. I have used them for decades and find them an essential tool in the kit. Does anyone know the genesis of this aversion?

Thanks
My theory is that pastes have no vibe. Plus, anybody that laid out $300+ on a stone/s doesn't want to admit that a crayon can do a similar or even better job. A Les Lat gets the job done for me in style but I turn to FeOx and CrOx once in awhile too.
Post Reply