Honing Experiment

Use a straight. You know it makes sense.
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drmoss_ca
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Re: Honing Experiment

Post by drmoss_ca »

It took me two goes to get the TZ as I like it. It turned out to be one of those blades that still do better with the Spyderco UF after the Arkansas. I suspect if I spent long enough on the Arks it would end up in the same place. So yesterday's shave was OK, but not special, and after the UF, today's was excellent. So I took out another Livi Damasteel and have it honed up for tomorrow.
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Re: Honing Experiment

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Since my last post I have alternated Livi Damasteels with Zowada damascus razors. Each has been touched up on the transArk with water, and then water/detergent, finally going to the blackArk with glycerine diluted about 50:50 with water/detergent. All have come up beautiful, and none of them have needed the Spyderco since my last post. I also have a couple of ERNs honed up and ready to go, and a pair of Red Points after them. Then there's all the classic Solingen razors, several more exotic TIs, the modern day (ie ~15-20 years ago) Dovos, the Harts, Filis and some more Sheffields. I'm rather glad I gave so many away. I might have everything honed before it comes to a halt in September.
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Re: Honing Experiment

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Thank you for this thread. Shaving with a favorite straight razor is one of my most memorable delights. Armed with your positive experiences with the Arkansas stones following your finishing stones, I broke one of my long standing rules and bought a pair from Sharpening Supplies and used them as well as I knew how before I began my month long schedule of 15 favorite razors. I got the 4" x 1" sizes due to the very fair prices which include a nicely done leather pouch for each stone. Hard translucent and hard black. I used them wet and over time I'll probably get ambitious and experiment with the detergent, glycerin etc. that seem to be finding favor with your razors. I've been cutting myself for reasons unknown but there is one possibility that comes to mind - maybe they're sharper than I'm used to and I haven't used them enough to compensate with an adjustment of my technique and resulting muscle memory. I've really got to learn why so many cuts all of a sudden and how to avoid that in the future.
Gary

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Re: Honing Experiment

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It's critically important, Gary, that they be lapped to a 2k surface if you want the results I'm getting. You can do it with a lot of 2k wet & dry paper, or with 2k silica carbide powder on some float glass. I have not yet found a razor able to resist them, and I've had my share of honing failures over the years. Now they make me feel like some kind of honing god without putting in any effort!

The absolute best source for such stones is https://www.danswhetstone.com/ and I'd recommend them without hesitation (and without payment either!)
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Re: Honing Experiment

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I'm pretty sure I have some 2k paper, but if not, I'll get some.
Gary

SOTD 99%: Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, soaps & creams, synthetic / badger brushes, Colonial General razor, Kai & Schick blades, straight razors any time, Superior 70 aftershave splash + menthol + 444
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Re: Honing Experiment

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I flattened the Arkansas stones with new 2K paper mounted on a marble slab. Following that I honed 4 razors which are to be used over the next 10 days beginning tomorrow: Boker King Cutter; R.Wade (1812 or so); Puma Inox; and Hart. Starting on the transArk with water, and then water/detergent, finally going to the blackArk with glycerin diluted about 50:50 with water/detergent.
Last edited by brothers on Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Gary

SOTD 99%: Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, soaps & creams, synthetic / badger brushes, Colonial General razor, Kai & Schick blades, straight razors any time, Superior 70 aftershave splash + menthol + 444
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Re: Honing Experiment

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Sounds good! Happy shaving!
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Re: Honing Experiment

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The result this morning with the Boker was very encouraging. Looking forward to the next SR shave on Friday.
Gary

SOTD 99%: Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, soaps & creams, synthetic / badger brushes, Colonial General razor, Kai & Schick blades, straight razors any time, Superior 70 aftershave splash + menthol + 444
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Re: Honing Experiment

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Slowly working my way through the box of Harts, and finding they are all pretty sharp already. So I've just put them on the black Arkansas with glycerine/detergent/water for about 60 laps, half straight and half x-strokes. Seems to be working fine.
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Re: Honing Experiment

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Harts all done, another Filarmonica, an ERN, and today a pair of Red Points visited Arkansas:

Red_Points.jpg
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Re: Honing Experiment

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I think you are back with the General now, Gary. How did you get on with the Arkansas stones?
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Re: Honing Experiment

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Chris, the Arkansas stones seemed to have given the razors extra dimensions of smoothness and comfort. Some more or less than other razors, of course, but noticeable. Just this morning I was thinking about a project that would take a little time, but should be well worth it. I think I should begin to touch up all of my 30 razors, with the Arkansas stones coming into play as the final step. I'm grateful to have had the benefit of your experiment, and I really hope others reading this thread might consider it with their own razors, if they haven't already done so.
Gary

SOTD 99%: Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, soaps & creams, synthetic / badger brushes, Colonial General razor, Kai & Schick blades, straight razors any time, Superior 70 aftershave splash + menthol + 444
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Re: Honing Experiment

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I'm within 30 or 40 razors of doing all mine. I said to Pippa the other day it would make them fetch a higher price. "Why are you selling them?" she asked. "I'm not; you are" I replied. Ha!
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Re: Honing Experiment

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A couple of razors honed differently this last few days - a coticule only. None of them needed a new bevel, so no 1k or 3k involved. I've read for years that a coticule edge is favoured by some. Reputed to be comfortable, though not perhaps as close as an edge can theoretically become.

My experience was different. A shave with an edge that was very forward in declaring its sharpness, wonderful at removing every vestige of stubble, though not as comfortable as possible. It felt rather like a safety razor that was getting too old, but still shaved closer than most. Perhaps I should put it this way: I'd enjoy the edge and the shave more if I went on to finishing stones. Were I to be honing the razor for sale and needed to show the buyer my honing was wonderful, I'd stop at the coticule!

Tomorrow I have another half hollow TI, which has been through the whole process, but the day after I have a Sheffield wedge that has stopped at the coticule. This might be interesting.
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Re: Honing Experiment

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Well, experience showed that a shave straight from a coticule (and strop) is quite acceptable, but the black Arkansas is much nicer still. I have simplified the honing regime, such that a bevel-set is done, if needed, on the Chosera 1k, most of the work on the coticule, and finishing on the black Ark. If the results aren't good enough I repeat the last two and so far no razor has resisted this. No pastes needed. I do strop very thoroughly, with 20 laps (ie 40 back and forth strokes) on Tony Miller linen, the same on Tony Miller latigo, and the same again on a supersmooth Old Dog (from the defunct HandAmerican). Will be experimenting with a Kanayama Llama 80000 in a few days.
I still have six razors from a seven day set of relatively cheap Dovos, eleven Friodurs, and then some odds and ends to do. I don't think I'll bother with all the old King Cutters I've been given; I want to go back to my favourites and compare them with what I've been doing lately. I've honed a new razor every day (on average, sometimes several in a day then resting a bit, but always using a new one each day) since late May. I'm now using three stones I didn't possess when I started, and using a technique I never knew before. And I'm pleased and confident it will deal with most razors I meet, and certainly all the ~150 I still possess.
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Re: Honing Experiment

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Well, I've reached the end of the road in updating all my razors, and I think I've learned a little along the way. First some stats:
115 razors honed, of which 1 good one given away
6 not honed, given away for practice restoration
Of the 115 honed, 3 could not be made to shave because of wonky geometry (the green/yellow fat scaled Friodur, the disappointing custom from Germany, and a Goldedge), and one that doesn't shave because it's not meant to - a Puma microtome ground kamisori style but intended for slicing microscopy specimens - sold to me when I was innocent as a peculiar kind of straight razor!) So 111/115 ended up shaving. Some were a lot easier than others, but none put up much of a struggle.

I started out wanting to try the running water Naniwa 3k, coticule, translucent Arkansas that Mastro Livi used, but by the end of the process I had replaced the 3k with a Chosera 1k, got a much nicer coticule, and swapped a black Arkansas for the translucent. I'm still using back and forth strokes on the first two, transitioning into edge leading strokes, under running water. The Arkansas gets only edge-leading strokes, and I use a solution of detergent and glycerine in water.

I'm looking forward to revisiting my favourite razors now, but it will be hard not to hone one each day! I do have a curious project coming, though, of which I will write elsewhere....
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Re: Honing Experiment

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Alright, curiosity project disposed of, and it went as expected.

Now I'm back to razors that have been honed and shaved with this year. But my best and favourite razors were the first to go through the process, and, as I've said, I changed some things along the way. So each day I'm testing the edge and only adding in some time on the black Arkansas if my thumb deems it necessary. Six razors in, only half have had a touch-up. So far, all shaves have been delightful.
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Re: Honing Experiment

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drmoss_ca wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 9:41 am I've been trying something a bit different. Having been reminded of the Livi method of Naniwa 3k, Coticule, and translucent Arkansas all used under running water and followed with paste, I've been trying it on other blades and inserting other stones here and there to see if it adds anything. The trick is to use back and forth strokes on each side gradually reducing numbers before turning over eg 20 back and forths on the front, 20 on the back, 10 back and forths on the front, 10 on the back, 5 on the front, 5 on the back, the 5 edge leading on the front, 5 edge leading on the back, and finally edge leading X-strokes front and back, front and back, and so on until you get suction. It will be subtle on the coarser stones and difficult to overcome on the finer ones. Use as little pressure as possible at this stage and keep the water running. How long it takes depends not just on the razor, its steel and the state of its edge, but also on the individual examples of natural stone you use. My 3" coticule, for example has veins in its surface. They don't stop it honing, but it it much harder to feel suction on it than on an older narrower 2" one I have that has a perfect surface.
It seems pretty clear that inserting a well-lapped Belgian Blue between the 3k and the coticule is helpful. It starts showing suction withing 10-20 strokes after the 3k, and I believe it shortens the time on the coticule. I get squeaky sticky suction on the Arkansas (lapped to 2k) almost immediately and it's a joy to use progressively less pressure until I'm at a feather-light touch and still feel the blade suction clamping that blade down. But the stage I'm at is whether there is anything to gain from 'finer' hones after this. The problem with really hard hones is that it isn't their nominal grit that counts, it's the scratch pattern. Lapping them produces really remarkable results that lets them work far better than you'd expect from the physical chemistry. We've seen it with the Spyderco UF, and I once had the chance to play for a while on a prototype <redacted major US abrasives brand> finishing hone that was inspired by the Spyderco, but with a different bond and grain. This had been lapped very fine (using 0.65μ abrasive, which is a 35k grit) and it was magic. Pity that project (which was to involve a kit of their 4k/8k, the finishing stone, a lapping plate of new design, and perhaps the lapped translucent Arkansas, providing they could ramp up production from the usual 100 stones per year) didn't go ahead. Anyway, I'm digressing - the difficulty is knowing where the translucent arkansas ought to sit. The kindest estimates say it is 3.5 -4k grit. But once the scratch pattern is made as fine as can be (and my stone was lapped to 2k as part of the prototyping experiment), it hones like something dramatically finer. I've read about people using the 'black surgical arkansas' stones after lapping as exquisite finishers, and they are classified as coarser than the translucents. So here's what I've done:

I've taken two great razors, both alike in dignity in fair Verona - ah, no, sorry, start again. Two razors of the same kind (maker, model, size) and given one the 3k, BB, Coticule, TransArk, Thuringian, Escher honing, and the other the same except stopping at the TransArk. Both went on to the same pastes: TI diamond/Al₂O₃, then green chrome, then Herold black, then stropping on a Miller latigo. Tomorrow, I'll use one on the right, and one on the left. I already have some idea of the outcome based on the back of my hand and and a microscope, but we'd better let the shaves speak for themselves. And just to pique the interest of one of our members, the pair of razors used are his favourite kind:

Image

and the hones:

Image

Not shown there, but I think the old Guanxi Chinese 12k is as good or better than the Thuringian. Shame, but we live and learn. Will my shaves be just the result of the pastes, or will they reflect the stones? Stay tuned.
I would say a translucent Arky could be 10k-12k lapped correctly! I would just lap it up to 3k wet/dry sandpaper, and let time do the rest, but at 3k sandpaper you still looking at 10k. I do love Arks, I have never finished razor on one, but hear they produce very keen and comfortable edges. Infact under a loupe or any magnifation, they produce a similar kasumi finish like Jnats. I would say that the paste will help make it very very smooth.

I am also experimenting with a new progression, although still green. I started with Shapton Kuromaku, but I didn't care for the deep scratches they leave, by the time I got to my Naniwa 12k those scratches stood out like a sore thumb, so I am selling . I bought me a set a Shapton Glass HC stones, and man they really produce straight mirrored edges, by the time I get to my Naniwa 12k, the stones before really make a difference.
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Re: Honing Experiment

Post by Southbound »

Dr. Miss - Oh - BTW a black Arky is just a tad denser, than the translucent, the black is a little more finer. The translucent is kinda a tad more bitey/grainer compared to black, but I would say the difference between the 2 is like a 8k and a 10k synth just for example. As I said I haven't tried on razor, but use them to put a final finish on some of my knives. If I used them on straights, I would use soapy water/dawn, then on finishing passes, I would do you usually under running water, then when it starts to get sticky/suction I would then go back to just clear water and a drop or two if glycerin, it seems to make you be able to get a few more strokes and stop the stickiness until get 'done'. I do this with jnats after running water, sometimes, but prior to the clear water and glycerin - I revisit the flax linen for about 15-20 strokes, it also helps with the grabby/suction/stickiness, because IMO I think a linen will slightly convex an apex, but not much we are talking microns, but it does help you go a few more strokes with the glycerin and water. Hope this helps. Nothing scientific, but just sharing what has worked for me.

Thanks,
Mike
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Re: Honing Experiment

Post by Southbound »

Edit: I apologise for putting Dr. Miss, it was a typo, couldn't figure out how to edit it, Dr. Moss

Thanks,
Mike
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