Honing Experiment

Use a straight. You know it makes sense.
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Re: Honing Experiment

Post by drmoss_ca »

The problem with tomatoes is that even a rather blunt kitchen knife will cut them. It's not a test of shaving sharpness.

Try thinking of it this way - if the razor won't shave, does the fault lie with the razor itself, the hones or the technique? Pastes don't really address any of those things properly, but act like a band-aid. Of course you can try it, but never be extensive with them. If you are not shaving after 25 laps on green paste you will have to look back at your diagnosis.
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Re: Honing Experiment

Post by Henry_L »

A tricky one. The green stropping did produce a noticable improvement but no arrival. It may be intuitive as to the point of backtrack. My instinct is to return to honing at the high end (8 - 10K).

The tomato reference was to the point I am convinced the edge has been set. It sliced quickly with only the weight of the blade & slight motion.

Would you try something different than a return to honing? I am fully confident in my prior hones and technique -- it just may be a special needs razor but I am reluctant to quit given the advances from where it started.
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Re: Honing Experiment

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Which brand of hones are you using? Have they been flattened? Are they well-soaked if porous waterstones?

Most razors have good enough geometry. Most hones aren't made for razors, but some are. Have you managed to take a dull razor through these hones to a 'shave-ready state,' or only touched up ones that already had decent bevels? etc.

Ultimately, all I can do is offer suggestions, but without seeing the hones and the razor I don't really know what the issue is.
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Re: Honing Experiment

Post by Henry_L »

Most are the 8X3 dual colored corundum waterstones found on amazon. Soaked and pretty sure they are flat -- I use two nagura stones (600 & 8000) with occasional w/d sandpaper touchup. Two of four ebay purchased razors have turned out well to date. None were in usuable state when received.

Possibly a factor is expectation. Should I expect to restore a vintage blade to the level of my Boker?

Just picking your brain Drmoss :) . I've immersed myself in the straight razor restoration process and have generally done OK, but experience has taught that I can always have blind spots.
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Re: Honing Experiment

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You might find life gets a lot easier with some known-quantity hones. Naniwas would be a good starting place.

C.
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Re: Honing Experiment

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The second TI Eagle 7/8 still isn't right. Looks impeccable under the microscope, but doesn't go ATG. Perhaps I'd better listen to what it has said to me: it likes the Spyderco UF, so I'd best give in and use it. Horses for courses. That means half a face devoted to it yet again tomorrow, so the other half might as well go under the first Eagle 7/8, which is always a delight to use.

In happier news, the TI Pierre Thiers Historic Limited Edition ("TIPTHLE") is shaving like a demon after the oiled Arkansas. It's probably softer steel than the pre-2012 lead-hardened 'silver' steel TI used to use, and while it's a tiny razor with an awkwardly thin shank, it now gives a very close and comfortable shave. For a razor beaten out somewhere between 1884 and 1929, it sure looks like it could be 100 years older. The sophisticates in Solingen must have laughed at this being made in the modern era, but its shave puts them to shame.
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Re: Honing Experiment

Post by Henry_L »

Sounds like your relationship with oil is changing.

Maybe Imperia La Roccia stones? I have higher quality stones for 3K,6K,8K and 10K (Dalstrong & Japanese.) Only higher end stones I lack would be sub 3K. I may undertake one or two more restorations and afterwards it will only be about maintaining what I have.

Yes I have usually started on a China 1K. Does that ruin the journey?

Thanks Drmoss.
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Re: Honing Experiment

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Henry_L wrote: Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:58 am Sounds like your relationship with oil is changing.

Maybe Imperia La Roccia stones? I have higher quality stones for 3K,6K,8K and 10K (Dalstrong & Japanese.) Only higher end stones I lack would be sub 3K. I may undertake one or two more restorations and afterwards it will only be about maintaining what I have.

Yes I have usually started on a China 1K. Does that ruin the journey?

Thanks Drmoss.
ILR look like Guanxi 12k to me. The fact they will only state, with regard to origin, 'Mother Earth', does not fill me with confidence. I don't know what a China 1k is, nor did I ever hear of Dalstrong before now. I really have to repeat that, good as those products may be, they are unknown quantities. Names we recognise, that have been used by hundreds or thousands of straight shavers would inspire more confidence, and at least let us know what we are dealing with. I can't say the hones you use are no good, I have no idea. And that's awkward when you ask for an opinion.
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Re: Honing Experiment

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My SiC paper turned up today, but stamped on the back is the word "Emery". Is that a brand as well as the name of an impure Al₂O₃? Does this paper utilise SiC or Al₂O₃? It won't matter immediately, as the Boss tells me I may not use the tile I bought for the purpose as she has decided that box of a dozen is to be used in a washroom at the new house. I may be allowed one, or maybe a half, if any are left over. Oh, for the days when a straight razor was the usual means of an early exit from this world. But then I remember Mr. Polly, and his difficulties with his razor in that regard.

After the success of the Mappin & Webb wedge, I think I shall go and take Big Daddy off the wall and put him through the new routine. He's got quite a smile, so it will be instructive to see if I can remember to keep changing the strokes for the amount entailed. I think I'll go with glycerine again instead of WD-40 (the smell of the latter is unpleasantly intoxicating). I forgot to mention it here, but when I honed the TIPTLE I used glycerine on my best transArk, which is easy to wash off so no worries about contamination. FWIW, the tracking still shows with hopeless, and likely unjustified, optimism, that the blackArk will arrive Monday.
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Re: Honing Experiment

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That was an easy and pleasant hone: big blades just hold themselves down on the hone with no quibbles. Came off the coticule nice and sharp, and simply got better on the transArk. Result: one of my finest shaves ever. Not insensible; there is that fine vibration of a wedge, but with a massy blade it's as faint as touching one end of a long, heavy canvas tent when someone undoes the zip at the far end. And as close as can be. So many razors that could be quite satisfactory as one's only blade. And possibly all going to get a bit better still when the black Arkansas turns up.

I'm quite sure there are interactions between steel and abrasives we don't understand. It's not as if we can rank order our hones and stones, coarse to fine, quick to slow, aggressive to mild. Some razors hone easily on some stones, but not on others. Some make exquisite but gentle edges on one stone, yet are sharper and less comfortable with others. Add in variables like grit size and shape, looseness or fixity of grit in the substrate, hardness, polishing and burnishing of hard stones and so on and you have an unscientific jumble of variables that exist on the abrasive side of the equation. Then on the other side there are all the properties of different steels, tempering, and grinds, and in between them all the operator factors; experience, skill, talent, technique, pressure, lubricants. We're a long way from the days when you were told to buy a Norton 4k/8k and get on with it. Thank goodness, but the more we know, the more we realise how much we don't know. Fun!
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Re: Honing Experiment

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And today a nice little Wade & Butcher wedge etched with "You lather well, I'll shave well" came off the stones very nicely. I'll shave with it tomorrow and maybe do "An Interesting Razor" thing. The postage tracking says my black Arkansas left Toronto airport at 6am on Friday, but since Canada Post seems to take long weekends I don't imagine it will be delivered tomorrow as they try to promise.

I'm really looking forward to polishing off the nonsense, from stones, razors and fora.
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Re: Honing Experiment

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Rather bizarrely, the USPS tracking still promises delivery of the blackArk by June 15th. They have no shame, these AIs.

But, I have a $1 flat ceramic tile, some Comet powder, a Scotch-Brite pad and some 2k wet and dry paper.

So while the supper cooks, I first proved that Comet and Scotch-Brite remove all the debris that an eraser cannot reach from a Spyderco UF. I then proved to myself that a sheet of wet and dry paper removes pencil marks from a Spyderco UF very quickly, and the remains of said sheet does the same for a Norton transArk. One sheet of w&d paper was destroyed very quickly. Ought they be allowed to destroy a few more sheets to perfect the 2k polishing?—no doubt they should. But both hone and stone have worked very well so far, and will likely be better for what they have suffered today. If they improve further, and if there are sheets of w&d paper left after the blackArk has been attended to, I may use the rest to take all three to whatever might be the endpoint of my capabilities. I suspect the cheapest and best way of doing this is not the cheapest and easiest. Actual 2k SiC powder and a sheet of float glass is probably better. But, how sharp a razor can a face stand? We seem pretty sure some razors/edges get 'too' sharp. As long as I can't feel my face being shaved, and the result is glassy smooth, I don't need better. I just need to learn to do it to every razor I hone. And there, I think I will find a problem. Other steels appear to like other methods better. Shall I try to conquer the entire world of steels and razors, or just be happy I have many razors I can hone to what I call 'perfection' and use only them? Shall I be smart or wise...
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Re: Honing Experiment

Post by brothers »

Success appears to be at hand. Fingers crossed awaiting results.
Gary

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Re: Honing Experiment

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I'm enjoying more success here than I deserve, Gary. I'm strongly tempted to drop it all and luxuriate in the way Big Daddy shaves right now. I know that won't last forever, and soft steel will need honing again before long. Maybe the point is to show the way. I already think I know how best to set a bevel, from whom to buy the next stone and the mid-range stone (just ordered a second exactly like the first to see if it is like the first!) and then the finishing stones and how to use them. But we're looking at 2-3 man-made hones, and 4 natural stones. Will anyone else be able to buy examples like mine? Goodness knows, and no doubt my experiences will be forgotten one day. But I'll know it is possible...
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Re: Honing Experiment

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The black Arkansas is having a hard time with Canada Post. The idiots have sent it all over Ontario rather than sending it to Nova Scotia. There are two other hones out there, one arrived in Montreal seven days ago and still hasn't arrived, and the third got to Vancouver four days ago and the tracking hasn't updated since. They must be seeing if the poor devils can walk here on their own.

I remembered the two Evide Sonnant razors waiting for the next experiment. One finished on the transArk with water, one stopped at the stage before (coticule) and awaiting the black Arkansas. Out of frustration, and because I now know I can, I gave the white scaled one some loving care on the transArk with glycerine and water. The edge feels very much finer to my thumb than before, but I'll hold off shaving with it until I've done the same for the other razor with the blackArk.

Amusingly, I had a disturbed night after cutting myself with a razor. During this lockdown, which will not end for me until I have someone else's marrow in my bones, I have been cutting (term used advisedly) my own hair with a razor comb. Two DE blades clamped into a comb with long tines on one side, short on the other. Works pretty well; just have to clean up the edges with the trimmer on the back of an electric shaver (vade retro me, Satana!) Yesterday I took up the device as usual and because the blades were getting a bit blunt went at it rather enthusiastically. First indication of trouble was blood all over my hand. I inspected the cuts on it (every honer and cook has cuts on his hands) to see if one had opened up, but none had. Then I heard the dripping. Turned out I'd swiped the short-toothed side of the comb down by my left ear, and hadn't even felt it slice a divot out of the edge of the pinna. My platelets are low, and very reluctant to clump courtesy of ibrutinib, and my clotting tests are prolonged for the same reason. There was blood all over, and it wouldn't stop. Must have used half a roll of that precious toilet paper. Eventually, sustained pressure and ground up styptic pencil gave it some pause. I chose a dark brown towel to cover my pillow and slept badly on the other side. Repeated the bleeding, squeezing, dabbing and styptic application this morning. Stings a bit on the ear. And yet, I happily sweep exquisitely sharp razors all over my face! Just a warning about what will happen if I'm not careful, I suppose. Shines a new light on the concept of a "safety razor" though, don't it?
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Re: Honing Experiment

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A few days ago I honed the 17/16 custom chopper from TZ, in the way I was using at the time, which, I think was just water on the transArk. I don't think I had started using detergent/water, or oil or glycerine at that time. I thought today I'd shave with it and feeling the edge I decided to go ahead rather than bring it up to the detergent/glycerine standard. I'm glad I did; it was wonderful. Sharper and closer than Big Daddy, maybe a hint of a sting with the aftershave. It will be so interesting to see what happens to the shaves if the blackArk turns out to be a finer stone. I haven't used a pasted strop since this began, and have been very happy with the results. Wish I knew all this before.
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Re: Honing Experiment

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The black Arkansas stone turned up today! (Actually, it was a good day for hones, another coticule arrived as did a backup Spyderco UF 3". I know what kind of coticule surface I want - sort of translucent and waxy, not dry and dull like chalk. Just need to get one in 3" width. This may be it.)

Dan's is famous for sending out stones as flat as flat can be, and these are lapped to 600 grit. So a few sheets of 2k wet and dry paper were sacrificed, along with some time with the Exide barber hone. It's getting pretty shiny, but only with a very low angle of incident light. Needs burnishing a bit more.

But the day was getting on, and there's cooking to be done, so I took the black-scaled Evide Sonnant and did my best on the black stone with water, then detergent/water, then glycerine. Shaved the right side of my face with the black, and the left with the white-scaled transArk-honed razor. I'm not sure what to report! The right side of my face always has more and thicker stubble, and the black razor has cleared it away completely smooth. But it didn't feel quite as comfortable doing it as the white razor was, and which did an equally good job, but on easier terrain, as Charles Roberts used to say. Is that due to the quality of the edges, or the different hair growth on each side of my face, or simply a razor difference, as no two TIs ever seem to be exactly alike?

So it's not quite clear to me yet which stone I should use first (water and water/detergent) and which second (glycerine). I guess I could swap the razors around and tomorrow do the opposite side of the face with each (looking for a side of face effect), and then another day put each razor to the other kind of Arkansas and see if they swap characteristics (looking for edge characteristics from the hones). If nothing changes, I will put it down to razor differences.

I have to remember that cheaper razors from TI aren't going to feel all silky and smooth like my big wedges, and I can't compare today's shaves with that kind of shave. I may have to hone a number of razors with each until I get a consistent impression.
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Re: Honing Experiment

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And just to complexicate matters more, I recalled I hadn't finished burnishing the black stone. Two hours of elbow grease later, it is pretty shiny, and I have taken each razor through 50 laps of x-strokes on its respective stone with glycerine and water. Neither blade has scratches visible on the bevel at 60x. The black razor feels like it has the finer edge by far and cuts arm hair better. And now I must wait till tomorrow before shaving again!

bestsharpeningstones.com did a nice experiment with respect to grit, and though their results indicated a finer grit in the translucent stone. I can't fault the method used, but the principle behind it is, perhaps, flawed. These super hard stones don't sharpen as one might expect from the embedded grit size, but from the way the surface has been dressed. How much soft matrix remains around the protruding abrasive particles? Have those particles been blunted by burnishing? That experiment rates black Arkansas stones at 2.5k and translucent at 4k - and why do their grit sizes differ anyway if the only differences between the stones is the impurities that give colour, and the void size between particles of novaculite? And, it's rather obviously irrelevant to the results we can get from them!

It's not hard to see how that experiment might be perfectly-well conducted, but misleading in it's results: by using scratch sizes as a measure of grit, they cannot tell the difference between actual physical grit and effective grit, the latter being how it behaves when allowing for how much of it is exposed (bigger voids between allow for more of the hard novaculite to be exposed, and this accounts for the difference between soft and hard Arkansas stones) and how it has been burnished. Dan's gives an estimate of how fine the effects are of true hard, translucent and black stones, ranging in that order from extra fine to ultrafine, with all grits being 1200+.

I think the only thing to take away is that novaculite stones behave broadly according to the amount of debris in the voids between silicon dioxide crystals, and this is reflected in their specific gravity compared to water (2.2 to 2.5 times as dense, with harder and better stones being denser). Once you are among the hardest and densest stones, individual behaviour depends on surface dressing. Maybe this black stone is better than that translucent, but with some extra polishing the translucent might become better than the black, or vice versa. My translucent is a rather pretty one that seems rare these days, with swirls of white, pink and yellow discernible within it. All the same, once I discover which of the two behaves as the finer, it will become the stone for the final glycerine stage of honing. And all these years I have been using the translucent as a mid-range stone to be followed by a finisher, and missing the fact it was likely capable of a far finer edge than the 20k or 30k ceramic hones.
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Re: Honing Experiment

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Very clear result today - the black razor off the black Arkansas bested the white one finished on the translucent. I suspected that was going to be the case when I felt the edges yesterday - this is hard to describe, but when you drag a thumbpad across an edge, you judge sharpness by the way it catches at the skin. Rather than being catchy, the black razor just gave a fine vibration, feeling more like the sharp edge of a wedge than a hollow razor. So in anticipation of the black stone winning, and because I needed to check out a new coticule, I took my full hollow 6/8 Loeffler & Sykes, and my Williams Purist through the coticule, transArk with water and detergent, then blackArk with glycerine a little diluted with detergent/water. I'm looking forward to trying them out, both being excellent shavers as honed before, and maybe better still now!
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Re: Honing Experiment

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Both of those razors turned out very sharp, so time for something a bit more tricky. I've taken a Livi Damasteel with abalone scales out of the display cabinet. It was already honed, but I rarely use it as it balances strangely, abalone being a bit heavy. So it's been on the coticule, the translucent and the black Arkansas stones, and well-stropped. We'll see what happens tomorrow.

Edit, next day: That's as good or better than I've ever managed to get a Livi Damasteel. A very close yet remarkably comfortable shave - not always things that go together! I always had to resort to pastes to get the edge I wanted on them, but the coticule, tArk, bArk triad has this one singing for me. This means a couple of things - firstly I need to put a good hard TZ damascus razor through the regime, and maybe play with some of the stainless razors languishing in the basement (there's Dovos, Hen & Rooster, a Puma and about nine Friodurs). And then get on with the rest of the Livis and TZs. Busy busy!
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