Honing Experiment

Use a straight. You know it makes sense.
User avatar
drmoss_ca
Admin
Posts: 10731
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:39 pm

Re: Honing Experiment

Post by drmoss_ca »

Thinking after the above that the Spyderco doesn't give any kind of stiction at all while it works its magic, I thought to myself that maybe I should regard the stiction in a more traditional sense - that you're done on that hone when you feel it. So if I make it go away can I go longer and get better results?

So, another visit to the basement and up comes an Edwin Jagger/Le Grelot 6/8 (ie an Evide Sonnant in all but name). It wasn't forty days and forty nights of honing, but with a drop of dish detergent I did 400 X-strokes on the transArk, looking at the edge under the microscope every 100 strokes. It did not change, either in appearance or in feel, or in effect on what's left of the hair on my left arm. And then I put it to the Spyderco UF for 50 X-strokes. No feedback, no stiction, no nut'n. And the edge is dramatically different, in microscopic appearance, in feel and on the last few hairs on my left arm.

I've used the translucent Arkansas for ten years, as a mid-range stone that goes between the bevel-setter and the finishing stone. I've loved it in that role, and I still do. And it might be my lack of skill, but I can't quite make it into a finishing stone that works for all my razors (and certainly for the TI's I have done this work on). It might also be the individual stone at fault; as natural products they all vary and some may be better than others. I would expect the theory behind burnishing the surface to reveal just as much as you need of the abrasive grit inside the stone to minimise those differences. It certainly changes the measured average grit of the raw stone into something much finer, but perhaps there are limits, and expecting it to be a wonderstone is expecting too much. I will do my best with the black when it comes, but if I can still get dramatically better edges with the Spyderco UF, there isn't any reason to persist with this. The Arks will remain my favoured mid-range stones that I use after coticules. Yes, maybe the fact some people claim they get the best shaves in the world off a coticule ought to have reminded me that there is no end of rubbish on the internet, and especially when it comes to claims about honing. I know I'm not the best honer in the world, but even if only average, my average skills ought to show what a stone can do, on average, and whether I get a better result with a coticule or a transArk. What started all this was Mastro Livi, who uses a transArk after a coticule, and who regards the edge as unfinished until it has been well-stropped on green paste. I have found nothing to say he has got the order of things wrong. I do find that the Spyderco UF (properly lapped!) is even better than the green paste, and if that's all I learn from this, I shall still have better shaves than ever before.
"Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothèse."
Pierre-Simon de Laplace
User avatar
Henry_L
Posts: 50
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:34 pm
Contact:

Re: Honing Experiment

Post by Henry_L »

Do you advise using the Ark stones dry? Ceramics? (Spyderco does)

Are the Spyderco rod sharpeners applicable for razors?

Dish soap in honing is new to me :shock:

Again thanks XX
User avatar
drmoss_ca
Admin
Posts: 10731
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:39 pm

Re: Honing Experiment

Post by drmoss_ca »

Henry_L wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:12 pm Do you advise using the Ark stones dry? Ceramics? (Spyderco does)

Are the Spyderco rod sharpeners applicable for razors?

Dish soap in honing is new to me :shock:

Again thanks XX
Not really, no and why not?
"Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothèse."
Pierre-Simon de Laplace
User avatar
Henry_L
Posts: 50
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:34 pm
Contact:

Re: Honing Experiment

Post by Henry_L »

I've seen Ark stones listed as oil only.

Presumably, if soap offers better lubrication, one could use KY Jelly to avoid the alkaline exposure.

:idea:
User avatar
drmoss_ca
Admin
Posts: 10731
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:39 pm

Re: Honing Experiment

Post by drmoss_ca »

I just don't want to deal with oil on a stone - it makes a mess, it gets into the stone, it can get onto and into waterstones being used and ruin them. There are water-based honing solutions (Smith's comes to mind) that I assume are based on the same components as Astroglide or Replens. Having bought lots of Vaseline for making CrO₂ paste, I'm not going back to the drugstore for Astroglide! A drop of dish detergent in water works fine for several hundred strokes and keeps the razor moving when the stiction of water alone would make it seize up. Plus it rinses off easily, and won't harm a waterstone if some gets transferred.

Barbers often used some lather on their hones for the same purpose.
"Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothèse."
Pierre-Simon de Laplace
User avatar
Henry_L
Posts: 50
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:34 pm
Contact:

Re: Honing Experiment

Post by Henry_L »

Yes. On the stone I've already used oil on (AK and jade) there's no going back I would guess.
User avatar
drmoss_ca
Admin
Posts: 10731
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:39 pm

Re: Honing Experiment

Post by drmoss_ca »

You can wash, scrub with ScotchBrite and Comet and soak in an organic solvent like acetone. The surface will be clean, for a bit, but the oil that has soaked in deeper will well up after a bit.
"Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothèse."
Pierre-Simon de Laplace
brothers
Posts: 21514
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:18 am
Location: Oklahoma City USA

Re: Honing Experiment

Post by brothers »

It might be possible to ameliorate the oil damage by soaking in Dawn detergent, which tends to break up the oil molecules and with the assistance of water, will possibly evaporate to some degree. Don't bet on it, though.
Gary

SOTD 99%: Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, soaps & creams, synthetic / badger brushes, Colonial General razor, Kai & Schick blades, straight razors any time, Superior 70 aftershave splash + menthol + 444
User avatar
drmoss_ca
Admin
Posts: 10731
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:39 pm

Re: Honing Experiment

Post by drmoss_ca »

I wouldn't want to give the wrong impression about oil: it is the accepted 'proper' way to use some kinds of stones. I may be at fault for trying to get by without it, but I have used my transArk for 10 years without oil and it has done solid service as the hone before the finisher. I'd bet it would work just fine followed only by a green strop too.
My purpose here was to see if it could be a finishing hone. Very likely there are Arkansas stones out there that can be, and it may be that more of them could be if used with oil. Conceivably I should dedicate my second transArk to that use, though my stock at the drugstore will be really suffering after Vaseline, Astroglide and mineral oil! People will cross the street to avoid me.

Today I have interacted with four razors (it's the weekend, of course it will be quieter than usual! :D ) The Edwin Jagger Le Grelot looked like it would be wonderful, but I put it down after the first pass. Something did not go right with that one. So I repeated the first pass with the 7/8 Eagle, and briefly wondered why I would ever use anything else? I can't even feel the hair being cut. Second pass across or against the grain, yes, I can feel the hair being cut, but no discomfort and really smooth. So after, I decided to work on another TI that has hardly ever seen action, a Loup et Bélier 5/8 with red stamina wood scales (so must have been made for knifecenter.com) and to try again to bring the other 7/8 Eagle (the older model with the stamped rather than etched shank) up to scratch. This last few days I have been mucking around with what had been working. Instead of following the pattern of honing strokes I was making alterations as soon as there was stiction, or adding lots of X-strokes at the end, all in an effort to make the stone into a finisher. So for these two, I went back to what was working, a set pattern and the Spyderco UF at the end. Tomorrow will tell the tale.
"Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothèse."
Pierre-Simon de Laplace
User avatar
Henry_L
Posts: 50
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:34 pm
Contact:

Re: Honing Experiment

Post by Henry_L »

My inquiry was not one of desperation. The jade and AK stones I have used with oil are supplementary to my razor projects and I will continue to use them as is. It is good to know that water stones should be stowed separately.

I am curious Drmoss: are there any times when you hone dry?
User avatar
drmoss_ca
Admin
Posts: 10731
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:39 pm

Re: Honing Experiment

Post by drmoss_ca »

Very rarely, and mostly in the past. Barber hones for the most part. Today has been devoted to investigating the lubrication, though. I started with shaving on one side with the little Loup et Bélier, which did very well indeed, but it's big relation, the second Eagle 7/8 still isn't what I want it to be (ie like the other Eagle 7/8!)
Later on I was learning about the use of sperm oil for honing, and whilst I knew sewing machines and watches require especially thin oils, I did not realise that in the past that was sperm oil. So I started thinking about viscosity. I get strong stiction with straight water, and even with light pressure and a fast flow of water, it becomes very hard to move the razor smoothly over the hone, as it want to go in jumps and starts. I recently had a long session with a squirt of liquid detergent and water on the Arkansas, and while the razor would move easily, I didn't seem to get anywhere. So I thought to use a lot less thick and viscous detergent. I put three drops in half a pint of water and used that. Initially the razor moved easily, but by 50 laps it began to need some more liquid as I was getting the intermittent resistance of stiction/suction just starting. As I went on, the water needed refreshing more often, down to about every ten laps. At this point I could manage to keep the razor on the hone with its own weight. I did two razors like this, one being the white-scaled Evide Sonnant that will be compared with the black-scaled one which will get the same treatment except on the black Arkansas (which is still a week away). It got about 300 laps (ie there and back strokes). The other was that recalcitrant 7/8, and I only managed about 200 laps. There was just the faintest hint of swarf in the water afterwards.

On the theory that the stone is so fine after lapping I am burnishing rather than cutting metal (where burnishing just means pushing it around and closing over existing scratches) I started with straight edge leading strokes, then swapped to heel-leading strokes, then to J-strokes. The microscope still shows scratches on the bevel after all that, but they disappeared after stropping (I compared real coarse linen with chalk paste against a webbing SRD strop). Both then were stropped on leather. There might be some point comparing these two razors against each other, one has been only on the transArk, whereas the other was on the Spyderco UF before the transArk. They both feel very fine to my thumb, and cut arm hair very nicely. Maybe, just maybe, I am moving a little closer to seeing why some people declare the hard Arkansas stones to be good finishers. I know the Spyderco UF makes better edges than the transArk used as I have used it with plain water. Perhaps it makes sense to use the transArk that way, then the Spyderco, then go back to the transArk and use detergent/water. Maybe use whichever of the trans or black stones proves to be the finer in that second place. They say you need to take a very good edge to these stones to see what they can do, presumably because a poor edge would take too many hours of work for anyone to be patient enough to do it all!
"Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothèse."
Pierre-Simon de Laplace
User avatar
Henry_L
Posts: 50
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:34 pm
Contact:

Re: Honing Experiment

Post by Henry_L »

If detergents generally make good lubricant one might give thought to soap substitutes such as Cetaphil -- developed to be more conditioning than detergents, hence more lubricating.
User avatar
drmoss_ca
Admin
Posts: 10731
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:39 pm

Re: Honing Experiment

Post by drmoss_ca »

I'm such a slut for honing. I can't stop myself. I don't know the model name, but I have a nice 5/8 TI that has horn scales and horn bolsters on the shank and tang. It seemed pretty sharp, so I put it on a coticule (not my usual 3" one with fissures, but a 2" with a perfect surface) and did some x-strokes with running water, some with detergent and then a very few superlight ones with razor and hone dry. Then transArk under running water, then with very dilute detergent, and then on to a second transArk with WD-40. Looks hopeful. I need more faces to shave!
"Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothèse."
Pierre-Simon de Laplace
User avatar
Henry_L
Posts: 50
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:34 pm
Contact:

Re: Honing Experiment

Post by Henry_L »

I've only had one razor barber shave and it wasn't satisfactory (allergic dermatitis reaction) but my self shaving, using a plethora of creams & gels has been fully satisfying. So far the only reaction I've had was to Cremo, but I found it makes a good leather soap so it wasn't wasted.

You're clearly at the forefront of the craft Drmoss.
User avatar
drmoss_ca
Admin
Posts: 10731
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:39 pm

Re: Honing Experiment

Post by drmoss_ca »

Possibly more bumbling around and occasionally tripping over something worth knowing.

So I was reluctant to go near oil. Maybe influenced by the smelly old stone in the basement in it's perfectly fitted box, soaked in decades of oil that was used by my grandfather who was a joiner before becoming a professional footballer and locomotive builder for the LMS. And it looks like I was wrong.

Two razors today, the TI 7/8 Eagle that was honed in the way described above, then taken back to the transArk with lots of x-strokes on very dilute detergent. It is as good as it's fellow now, and might get even better...because the second razor was that 5/8 buffalo horn, and it was tuned up as described just above (coticule, transArk with water, detergent, and second transArk with WD-40), and it did really very well. I'm not saying it was the best thing ever, it wasn't. But this was a razor that has languished on the Wall of Shame and in the basement for 15-16 years, and although pretty, it never seemed to take much of an edge. But a mere 50 laps on detergent and 50 on oil and it cuts without sensation and leaves a glassy smooth cheek behind. What will it be like if I do 200 laps on each? What about the 7/8 - how much better will it get if I give it some oily love?

This could mean that the Spyderco UF can be left out. In a week's time the black Arkansas should turn up from Dan's. I'll have to decide which is the finer, trans or black. Presumably the right sequence then will be to use the less fine stone with water and then detergent, then the finer stone with oil. The 2k wet and dry paper should be here today, so I'll continue working on the second best transArk, and use it with oil until the black one comes and we can sort out the proper arrangement.

It looks like the morals of today's shaves are that very careful preparation on the stone before the Arkansas is helpful, that the Arkansas has more to offer than just with water alone, and that detergent and then oil make for stepwise improvements in the edge that can be produced. This is exciting!
"Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothèse."
Pierre-Simon de Laplace
User avatar
drmoss_ca
Admin
Posts: 10731
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:39 pm

Re: Honing Experiment

Post by drmoss_ca »

I wanted to take things further today, but the W&D paper didn't turn up as promised. So using my second best transArk from bestsharpeningstones.com, in good daylight I realise it is still far from flat. You can see the oil being swept away from some parts of the surface, and pooling relatively undisturbed in other parts. From what I understand about stones from Dan's, the black will arrive as flat as flat can be. I'll still need to figure out whether the Norton translucent or Dan's black should go first with water/detergent or second with oil. I still haven't found a decent USB microscope, but this is the 5/8 TI after another 200 laps on oil, and then stropping:

TI oil honing.jpg
TI oil honing.jpg (67.36 KiB) Viewed 8112 times
There are a few rogue scratches, but most of the bevel has a uniformly misty appearance. The little dots going along the blade just proximal to the bevel are dots of oil.
"Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothèse."
Pierre-Simon de Laplace
User avatar
Henry_L
Posts: 50
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:34 pm
Contact:

Re: Honing Experiment

Post by Henry_L »

Drmoss do you use diamond stones much?

Did a modest stropping experiment: I've always had good pre-leather results from linen and denim so I wondered why not both? I combined the materials on a stropping board, being careful that the seam was closed & even
Image1.jpg
Image1.jpg (3.62 KiB) Viewed 8105 times
So far it works great. I'm going to create one with canvas and denim just for comparison.

You mentioned you got good results from green paste stropping. Do you finish with leather-only stropping or go straight to shaving from the green? I'm also preparing a number of balsa strops from pieces I salvaged at a lumber outlet. In my research I was somewhat surprised that some folks actually prefer balsa to leather. One question for me is how thick you crayon on the paste. Some of the youtubes look as if the paste was coated in a liquid state. Don't think I can achieve that without hardening the balsa. Something I'm missing?
User avatar
drmoss_ca
Admin
Posts: 10731
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:39 pm

Re: Honing Experiment

Post by drmoss_ca »

Green paste is great stuff, though I'm discovering it isn't necessary for all razors if you hone them right. You need very little, in fact always use less than you expect to need. Always strop on a plain strop after the paste (and wipe the paste carefully off the edge first so as to not contaminate your strop). There used to be a very nice liquid product made by HandAmerican (now defunct). And soft balsa? Probably the best kind for this job. Hard balsa is for leading edges of a different kind (if you're an aeromodeller, you will know where I'm going...)

Just did my TIPTLE or whatever people call it. Looks like a nice shave is coming up day after tomorrow (have to recheck the 7/8 and 5/8 now they have had a lot more oil laps first).
"Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothèse."
Pierre-Simon de Laplace
User avatar
drmoss_ca
Admin
Posts: 10731
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:39 pm

Re: Honing Experiment

Post by drmoss_ca »

The TI 5/8 has become exemplary. The 7/8 was maybe not so good as yesterday, and under the microscope I see a little microcipping of the edge. Possibly from the unchamfered edge of the second best transArk. So I drew it gently across the corner of a stone twice, and then used the fast-cutting 2" coticule, the Norton transArk with water and detergent, then the second best with WD-40. Stropped and the edge looks clean under the microscope.

So it will have to be tested again tomorrow, along with the TIPTLE.

The 2" coticule from The Perfect Edge is a very different stone to the 8x3" from Timber Tools. It is shiny, hard and smooth, and it sharpens quickly. The larger one has a pale, matt, dry-looking surface with some fissures. It seems much less effective.
"Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothèse."
Pierre-Simon de Laplace
User avatar
Henry_L
Posts: 50
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:34 pm
Contact:

Re: Honing Experiment

Post by Henry_L »

Have a Shapleigh Diamond Edge I've been working on Drmoss. After two rounds of honing (3-10K) it's still not a satisfactory shave. No warping, easily passes tomato test. I suspect my next approach should be paste stropping, extensive.

Any particular sequence you advise?

Thanks.
Post Reply