The WHO, WHEN and WHY of the Reformulation

[notthesharpest]

Perhaps the individual companies who say they never changed their formula are correct - perhaps Creighton's has simply stopped following that formula.

[rustyblade]

Pretty simple really. All of the top companies (Harris, Trumper, etc.) have the image that their shaving creams are made in the back of their stores right in the heart of London. They do not admit to any reformulations (Taylor excepted) because how and why would they if they controlled the process. They have no say whatsoever it seems and have to roll with it, i.e. deny it.

[bernards66]

Richard, Yeah, there probably is some truth in that. Back in the '80s Trumper never openly acknowledged that they'd been forced to cease making the creams themselves, as they always had in the past. You read Michael's tale about that. Trumpers and Harris's really do still make some of their own products in London, but others, like the creams, they haven't in some time. Then too, the ingrediants in the new creams, per se, are not different, but the consistancy is. In other words, the proportions have changed; there is more water and/or air in them. So, they can say; "the ingediants have NOT changed, harumph!" and they haven't....but...
Regards,
Gordon

[kaptain_zero]

Gordon, isn't it also possible that with the surge in demand for these products, we are simply seeing "fresh" product, rather than stuff that has sat on the shelves and in warehouses for years before being sold?

I realize that we (SMF,B&B, Straight Razor Place etc.) are fairly small as far as numbers go, but considering that the average gent does not obsess about shaving quite as much as the typical Forum junkie, we might just have more influence than we think. Just look at C.G. and his one time spot on the telly coupled with his blog which has had quite the effect on the shaving community one way or the other.

I do see some changes though I have not been around that long.... I came in around the time of Taylors being in the middle of changing from old to new. I have both and while I enjoy the old thick and rich creams (I got a pot of Rose and Lavender of the old stuff) I do not have any real issues with the newer fluffy stuff as long as I adjust the cream/water ratio. I wrote sometime back that I had an issue with the "almond size" quoted to be the proper measure of cream as I found that the "wrinkled walnut" was a more accurate measure for me with the "new formula" Taylors.

Speaking of "more air" in products... I seem to have received a Simpsons Duke 3 with "more air" in it's bristles.....<sigh>. My first Duke 3 was very dense and tightly packed but unfortunately it had the defective handle material and I was forced to send it back... Much to my dismay, the new brush was far less dense and not the same brush anymore. I am going to assume this is simply a "hand made" variation, rather than a fundamental change but I still wonder......... To put it another way, if I could have chosen to return this brush for my old one with the defective handle... I would. Still, the new one performs quite well... it's firm and gets the job done... in some ways it's even easier to use than the old one but I was quite fond of the old brush. Oh well.

Regards

Christian

[bernards66]

Christian, No, I don't think so. There are a few gents on this forum who have been using these creams for a very long time, and not one of us have seen specimens like these new ones tend to be, across the board. According to Michael, even the shift that Trumper made in the '80s, from making it themselves, to the Creighton product, was not as extreme in terms of lather and shave quality. And I think that Richard's version is the simplest, i.e. it's a change, for whatever reason(s) at Creightons.

Now that I think about it, this may have been what the whole deal was with Coate's, or part of it, anyway. All along, David Carter and associates were talking about searching for another "packer". I always took this to mean another maker of containers. Afterall, why would they not continue to have their excellent creams actually made at Creightons? Well, maybe this is why. Perhaps he was unwilling to accept an alteration in his shave cream, and was searching for another actual maker. Was unable to find anyone suitable, or priced acceptably, so he just packed it in, rather then sell an inferior product. It would be like Mr. Carter to make a decision like that....keeping in mind that Simpson/Coate's is not his main money making business.

Yes, Corey's segment had a hugh inpact at the time in the sales of top end English creams, beyond doubt. But that was TV, and TV can do a thing like that. As far as I know, the demand did not continue at that level. It was a hugh spike on the graph, as it were.

Sorry to hear about that Duke, but since you say it is "firm" I gather that it is still pretty dense. Chris M.'s brand new CH1 does not seem to be as super dense as the ones I've used and seen, but it's still plenty dense. A Vulfix it ain't. Plissons vary some in that regard as well. Brett has a HMW that is not at all as dense as my EW, for example.
Regards,
Gordon

[rustyblade]

Another thing to think about...why after all these years would T&H get a Canadian company to manufacture their Ultimate Comfort shave cream? They have been using Creighton's for years, why would they switch? UC is not a North American only product, it is sold in England so I think that the target market had nothing to do with the decision.

[ScottS]

. For one thing, I'm still not certain that these creams will keep for years at proper consistancy. I do know that my personal favourite, Coate's, seem to dehydrate over time regardless of how they're stored, and interestingly, the T&H creams are another that haven't seemed to keep all that well. The old Taylor creams seem impervious to time, however. But, the other thing is....well.....it's almost like, 'why prolong the agony?' If I'm going to run out at some point anyway, I'd almost rather face it sooner rather then later.

Gordon--

I feel for you, but at least I can point you in what I think of as a good direction for you to cast your wider net. Have you considered eShave? It's quite different from all the other English lathering creams I've tried (and yes, it is English). The packaging is quite clever to-- if you maintain the little plastic insert, the seal seems better than any other tub I've seen.

[bernards66]

Scott, I appreciate your suggestion, but I've never cared for the eShave products. The AOS and Salter's creams don't do it for me either. Nor the 'new style' creams like UC, Nancy Boy, etc. What I like, and what has always worked best for me, are the dense old fashioned type English shave creams. If those become totally unavailable, then the top shelf hard soaps will become my daily companions. They are, in fact, what I started brush shaving with many years ago, and I used them for a long time. And, I have better brushes now then I had then, so, if anything, they work a shade better then they used to. It really is a shame about Coate's and the rest though. Really superlative products.
Regards,
Gordon

[letterk]

Gordon, I have it from a good source, one that works with Simpson daily, that Coates was canned because they just didn't have the resources to devote to it any longer. Simpson was (I'm not sure if they still are) in financial trouble and needed to devote their time and money into getting Simpson brush under control.

[Ken]

Gordon wrote:

"There are a few gents on this forum who have been using these creams for a very long time, and not one of us have seen specimens like these new ones tend to be, across the board."

Gordon,

As you know I have been using these creams for a very long time, at least as long as you have and perhaps a little longer, and, as you also know, I do not agree that there is clear evidence that they have all been reformulated (especially Trumper's). A number of others have reported buying good quality recent production. You are certainly free to express your views and note that some others agree with you, but there is not unanimity among all the experienced users in the group and I don't think that we should all be lumped together.

Ken

[Ken]

John,

I have also heard, from what I believe to be a reliable source, that Simpson's had business problems that resulted in the demise of Coates.

Ken

[marsom]

Well, back when I was considering buying another Simpson brush, a reliable longtime Simpson vendor told me that David Carter's son basically ran the business into the ground and they were having all sorts of financial trouble as well. I didn't ask about Coates, but this information and the fact that large number of Simpson brushes kept turning up flawed kept me from purchasing one.

Regards,
Marion

[bernards66]

Ken, I apologize. You are indeed one very long term user of Trumpers who has not, for the most part, noticed significent changes in their creams of late. But, we do know that Taylors has changed, and the most recent Harris's offering have been quite different indeed, almost all who are familiar with that brand agree. And while there are not all that many members who have used Trumpers for years, I think it would be fair to say that the majority of them who have spoken up, think there have been some changes of late. Now another longer term trad. shaver is saying that he's been told to expect 'reformulation' from T&H later this year. While this may or may not turn out to be so, it certainly is looking more and more like an across the board thing with the creams that are supplied by Creightons.

Regarding Coate's; of course I have heard the same ( and in some detail, that I never thought it appropriate to post ), and believed the same regarding the decision not to continue with the Coate's creams. And, that probably is, at least, the major, if not the entire reason. David Carter has never been that keen on being in the shave cream business it's said. Still, before the recent fiasco, they were indeed looking pretty far afield for SOMETHING. I always just assumed that it was for a supplier of less expensive packaging/containers. But maybe they were searching for more then that....who knows?
Regards,
Gordon

[e5f]

Yes, I understand that my comment was probably too charitable, but I thought I'd just play the devil's advocate for once

Gordon, as an aside, you really might wish to try the newer Taylor's creams. They are very slick, and while you do end up using more compared to the old version, the prices are still quite reasonable.

As far as Harris, AND Trumpers go............I have both old AND new formulations. I have talked to many retailers and they acknowledge the difference between the older and newer stock. There CLEARLY is a difference in lather and quality.

The VALUE is no longer there. So I've written both off. (Unless I am able to find the odd old formulation)

Thanks,
Merlyn

[bernards66]

Merlyn, I hear you and I agree. I think I posted somewhere recently that I might give the newer Taylors a try one of these days, as at least it is still reasonably priced. Several have said the same, ie, that it still works pretty well, you just have to use more cream. At $14 a pot, I can probably live with that....but not at $30. And the newer Taylors I saw in NY looked okay, it was just lighter weight, more 'fluffy'. The new Harris's creams I have are just plain 'off' IMO. Very wet, very slick, don't seem to lather well...they're just not for me. I have to reserve judgement to some degree on the Trumpers, as I've only used two examples of the newer stuff ( which was clearly different, IMO ). But the feedback I've read here, for the most part, has not sounded encouraging. I certainly don't intend to mail order any. At the prices they charge, I definately want to look it over first.
Regards,
Gordon

[Aztecface]

I respect the fact that Trumper's, Taylor's and DR Harris have reformulated and even that they dont manufacture the creams at the back of their shops... but how do you know that Creighton is the one manufacturing the creams and how do you know that T & H's Ultimate Comfort isn't made by T & H?

[rustyblade]

I respect the fact that Trumper's, Taylor's and DR Harris have reformulated and even that they dont manufacture the creams at the back of their shops... but how do you know that Creighton is the one manufacturing the creams and how do you know that T & H's Ultimate Comfort isn't made by T & H?

It is common knowledge that Creighton compounds the creams for T&H. Ultimate Comfort is manufactured in Canada.

[rustyblade]

In the J.M. Fraser thread I mentioned that the cream was manufactured for barbers way back when (1956?) and that it was obviously used for straight razor shaving only. This got me thinking about this reformulation nonsense. Wouldn't Trumper and Taylor's own barbers be upset by these changes? They presumably work with the shave cream many times a day and would be very aware of any differences in performance no matter how subtle. They would have to toe the company line however, but they still don't have to like it.

[ScottS]

How often do folks think production runs of the three T's take place?? Once a year, every other year, twice a year??

Just trying to figure out if all this is a Creighton's problem.

[drmoss_ca]

I respect the fact that Trumper's, Taylor's and DR Harris have reformulated and even that they dont manufacture the creams at the back of their shops... but how do you know that Creighton is the one manufacturing the creams and how do you know that T & H's Ultimate Comfort isn't made by T & H?

It is common knowledge that Creighton compounds the creams for T&H. Ultimate Comfort is manufactured in Canada.

Possibly, just possibly, at the same place Nancy Boy and The Gentlemen's Refinery creams are made.

Chris