Daughter a tad disappointed in LSAT score

Post by **Sam** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:45 pm

She scored a 152, which put her at th 53rd percentile. Along with a 3.95 GPA, I think it is not a matter of IF she will get into law school, but where. She does not want to attend in our hometown, but really wants to go to UT Knoxville. She is even thinking of ditching law school. I dont mind either way, but I don't want her to think that she can not be a good lawyer if she does not go to her first choice law school. So far, I've decided to just sit back and let her work through this.

Sam

rtaylor61 · Post by **rtaylor61** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:10 pm

Sam, will that score and GPA not get her into the Knoxville school? One of the things I would focus on (and I have no idea how schools will look at her score) is that is may be better to go to a smaller school and be a lead dog vs. going to "the best" where competition is much more fierce and be a bit further down the totem pole. I have no doubt that with you support she will do fine no matter where she chooses to go.

Randy

Post by **Sam** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:17 pm

Randy, she seems to think that the median score of last years class was 157, so she says they will not look at her. She can get into Memphis easily, our hometown, and at Ole Miss. UT is probably just outside the top 30 lawschools in the U.S. Memphis passes more of a % on the bar 1st time out, but UT told her that they get students from over 30 states in the U.S. She loves it up there. I think the initial disappointment will set in, and then in a week or 2, she will focus on applying. I told her to go with 10 schools. She is more worried about having friends, and she has no one in Memphis. I told her that she will have no time her 1st year as they string classes out and she will bond quickly with a few close people for a study group. We shall see.

MOSES · Post by **MOSES** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:29 pm

Sam,

Been a while since I looked at LSAT scores, but on the other hand I did teach the LSAT at one point....

My STRONG advice, if she is not happy, and thinks it will keep her from getting into the school of her choice, is to consider taking the December or possibly February test. There are some downsides, but I think she should consider it.

The downsides are that the school will not get the scores until after the rest of her application, and the score combination. So, if they just see the score of the first and reject her outright, it will not help. With a 3.95, I doubt that will happen. Also, unlike the SAT, where the highest score is what counts, LSAT scores are averaged. Technically. On the other hand, the schools see both, as well as the average, and my understanding is that if a second score is significantly higher, they weight that pretty heavily, so it is not really just the average.

First question, is how much prep she did, and whether she took a formal class. If not, consider it. Expensive yes, but worth it. I taught for Kaplan, and we had a 7 point average increase. I think that is true of all of the good prep courses. (I would do Testmasters or Kaplan over Princeton Review, but that's pretty subjective.) But it was directly proportionate to the amount of effort from the students. My students who put in an above average amount of time inevitably had an above average score increase. I had on guy start at at 145ish, and end up in the 160s.

Regardless, your daughter has an exceptional GPA going for her, which will definitely help. (Definitely higher than mine. Of course, that one D- had a lot to do with that.....)

Best of luck to her.

-Mo

Gaz · Post by **Gaz** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:29 pm

The GPA is impressive, especially if it includes any AP courses. A good written statement (I know when I looked at law schools, most require a written, personal statement of some kind) and extracurricular activities can help make up for a sub-par LSAT. Can she not retake the LSAT?

Post by **Sam** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:45 pm

Mo: She took Kaplan and studied hard. Had 4 straight 148's and then the 153. She was kinda hoping that she would stay at 148 and get the money back if she was not gonna crack 157, which to her is what she needed.

Wife says that the daughter may not go to lawschool if she cant get into UT. I dont know what to make of it, but Im biting my tongue. I kinda want to tell her that if she lets this first disappointment knock her off course, it was not a serious desire to be a lawyer in the 1st place. But, Im trying to be patient

Jeff: She tells me that the schools look at it as you should not increase but one or two points on average, and that if the second score is a lot higher, then they regard that as a fluke. That is what she says the UT admissions told her. SHe did not want to take the December test (this was back in September when she took it) and February might be too late.

MOSES · Post by **MOSES** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 5:10 pm

Well, if her scores are that consistent, then maybe not. Regardless, though, there is not THAT huge a difference between 152 and 157. Not so large that good enough GPA, personal statement, etc. couldn't make up for it, I would think.

Good luck to her, whatever her decision.

-Mo

Post by **Sam** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:16 pm

Thanks Mo. It aint the end of the world if she doesn't get into UT or even if she does not want to be a lawyer.

salbev · Post by **salbev** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:38 am

Sam wrote:Thanks Mo. It aint the end of the world if she doesn't get into UT or even if she does not want to be a lawyer.

I think she needs a little distance. If she really wants to be a lawyer, then a bit of time off without discussion will give her time to reflect on this.

Randy

that's odd... how did Randy post a comment from my screenname?

-Sam

salbev · Post by **salbev** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:39 am

salbev wrote:
Sam wrote:Thanks Mo. It aint the end of the world if she doesn't get into UT or even if she does not want to be a lawyer.

I think she needs a little distance. If she really wants to be a lawyer, then a bit of time off without discussion will give her time to reflect on this.

Randy
that's odd... how did Randy post a comment from my screenname?

-Sam

alright! Sam and Randy please stop posting comments from another member's screenname, please! thank you.

-sal

rtaylor61 · Post by **rtaylor61** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:12 am

Sam wrote:Thanks Mo. It aint the end of the world if she doesn't get into UT or even if she does not want to be a lawyer.

I think she needs a little distance. If she really wants to be a lawyer, then a bit of time off without discussion will give her time to reflect on this.

Randy

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:28 am

Sam, I think you're dead right that the score will not keep her out of law school, but may keep her out of the school she wants. I agree with Randy that sometimes it's better to be a big fish in a small pond, as well.

There's the possibility that she could transfer schools at the end of the first year. That certainly wasn't common back when I was in school, but it did happen. One person I knew spent her first year at a smaller tier school, made law review, and transferred in to my school. She even got law review reciprocity, which was nice for her.

If her mind's made up, though, it's made up. It's tough to be young and have to make these choices with so little life experience. Whatever she decides, though, that GPA indicates to me that she has the motivation necessary to succeed.

Post by **Sam** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:23 am

Bob, I would rather her know now that law school is not for her than to spend the money and not use the degree somehow, even if to do financial planning. I am going to give her distance for a while, see what she wants to do.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:40 am

That sounds wise to me, Sam. There is no doubt that a law school degree is expensive. While I'm of the opinion that a law school education is never wasted, we both know that large numbers of lawyers drop out of the profession after a few years of practice. I sometimes wonder if those folks would have been better off going into another field and saving their money. And, if the law still intrigues her after being out in the real world, she can always apply later. Best of luck to her, whatever she decides.

TstebinsB · Post by **TstebinsB** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 1:36 pm

Bob wrote:That sounds wise to me, Sam. There is no doubt that a law school degree is expensive. While I'm of the opinion that a law school education is never wasted, we both know that large numbers of lawyers drop out of the profession after a few years of practice. I sometimes wonder if those folks would have been better off going into another field and saving their money. And, if the law still intrigues her after being out in the real world, she can always apply later. Best of luck to her, whatever she decides.

I am going to law school with the expectation of getting a good job. Living in NYC, there are many positions available for law school graduates. If that job is actually practicing law, great. If not, that's fine also. Since this is my first semester, I still have time to decide what I want to concentrate on.

I took my LSAT test only 3 months after I started studying for it. I know a kid who started preparing 3-4 years before he would even be able to take the test! Is it really that serious? I don't know. I just thank God iI did well. I definitely didn't want to go through it again.

Good luck to your daughter!

DaveInPhilly · Post by **DaveInPhilly** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:47 am

I can't comment on whether Law School is for your daughter, but if she does want to go, it may make her feel more comfortable that a very close friend of mine went to Villanova with a 3.9 GPA and a 152 LSAT. I even have a friend who graduated from Pace and currently works for the DA's office, who got into law school with a B average and a 148 LSAT score.

deg0 · Post by **deg0** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:34 am

If I remember correctly, a big part of law school admissions are the letters of recommendation. I think that is more important than the LSAT. At least in Pennsylvania. It isn't like her LSAT score is bad. If she does not want to retake the LSAT and try for higher, I think the best bet is to focus on getting some great letters of recommendation. Most professors will write some outstanding letters if they believe the student is really interested in attending the school. Does she have any professors that are alumni of the school she wants to go to? If so, get them to write her letters, that always carries some weight.

Good Luck to her, I hope she is not so discouraged by the LSAT score as to not go to law school at all, that would be unfortunate.

Dan G.

TstebinsB · Post by **TstebinsB** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:12 am

DaveInPhilly wrote:I can't comment on whether Law School is for your daughter, but if she does want to go, it may make her feel more comfortable that a very close friend of mine went to Villanova with a 3.9 GPA and a 152 LSAT. I even have a friend who graduated from Pace and currently works for the DA's office, who got into law school with a B average and a 148 LSAT score.

I'm giong to Pace right now because I have a good job in Rockland County and I didn't want to commute all the way to NYC. It's a good school but my goal is to transfer to Fordham or St. John's next fall.

I remember I was working as a bank teller a while back and the customer I was helping was a lawyer. I started talking to him about how I got into the schools I wanted but couldn't afford to go yet. He says which schools and I told them. He smirked, got real close to the counter window, and retorted proudly (paraphrasing), "Well, those schools are no Harvard. I went to Harvard Law School." I shot back, "You may have learned law there but obviously, you didn't learn much of anything else. Have a good day!

"

MOSES · Post by **MOSES** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:02 pm

TstebinsB wrote:He smirked, got real close to the counter window, and retorted proudly (paraphrasing), "Well, those schools are no Harvard. I went to Harvard Law School." I shot back, "You may have learned law there but obviously, you didn't learn much of anything else. Have a good day! "

And they wonder why people don't like lawyers....

Good retort though.

-Mo

Post by **Sam** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:15 pm

Follow up

8:00 and my wife is still at work. My daughter told me she really does not have her heart cut out for law school. She loves UT Knoxville so much that she would consider law school, but not enough to want to go elsewhere just so she could be a lawyer. She did tell me her boyfriend said that if she did not go to lawschool, they might get engaged in the summer. I know she does not want to let me know, but yes, I can sense that she is very excited to hear that. She is going to get two degrees, a business degree to go with her psych degree, so she will get out in 4.5 years rather than 3 years. Im okay, as I want her to find out who she is as a person, and not follow me into law because she will think I am somehow more proud. She wants to go into some sort of human resources management degree with psychology. I guess she can help head up employee assistance programs, find out what jobs suit people the best, who knows.

Sam

Hey, what jobs might she be able to want to do using psychology and a business background. Id like to be able to cut and paste the responses to give her food for thought