im trying to wade through the catalog that was linked for me in another thread. im guessing that there are limited models, without custom ordering, of the european white and the high mountain white. i have read that some HMV brushes are upwards of $500 and that the european white is around $350 and then gordon mentioned his was closer to $200. certainly the $200 makes it more in the price range of most of us.
nathan has said that the european gray may be like the kent bk8.
what are the characteristics of the HMV, euro white, and euro gray. i take it the chinese gray is the regular best badger hair that in color is equal to the kent and other best grades. or is it? id not want a custom brush until i knew that i like the feel of a plisson better than any other brush. on page 2 of the catalog, it attempts to classify it, and it tells from whence the badger hair comes, but like some have said a bristle is prickly, i would hate to experience that.
i know that, if i were serious, at some point at call to JJ at atkinson's is in order, but i would want to narrow the search down to a 3 or 4 brush search, and have a better knowledge of how these hairs tend to feel on the face, if they splay or retain their shape, etc.
PM's also welcome.
sam
can anyone give a primer on plisson
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bernards66
- Duke of Silvertip!
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- Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 1:02 pm
Sam, Regarding what seems to be available today, from Plisson, the catalogue posted at Atkinsons is self explanatory. Nathan has included the Plisson descriptions of their various grades of bristle, in two of his recent posts. Hopefully, I will also send you a PM soon ( having some problems with it tonight ).
Regards,
Gordon
Regards,
Gordon
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JackieMartling
Sam, I believe you have already seen this, but I will post it here so others can find it easily, since this thread is an obvious place for people to look for information on Plisson. Regarding your specific questions, Chinese badger looks fairly dark in the catalog. I would think if you're looking for general equivalents, Euro Gray would be more like what you'd find in a BK8. Keep in mind, though, that Simpson, Kent, et al, claim to get all of their hair from China; Plisson evidently has some European lines in their offerings, even though they do not specify the exact country of origin. Thus, there may be some differences. The broad categories - White, Gray, and Black - can be used as a general system of classification for all grades of Badger hair, but once you get into the finer points of classification (e.g., European Gray vs. Chinese Gray vs. Simpson Best vs. Vulfix Super, etc.), trying to nail down exact equivalents could get tricky.
High Mountain White: The best of the best - not to be confused with Best. Hairs in this grade are taken only from badgers that live above a certain elevation (ostensibly above the snowline), and thus develop lighter hairs. We can equate HMW with ultra-high-end silvertip, such as Extra Super, or possibly Rooney's Finest, only I would say the stuff Plisson has is in a class by itself. I don't know how they get their hands on it to the exclusion of everyone else. The term 'White' is an older one, that used to be used synonymously with silvertip, to describe hair that is white at the tips, and black in the shaft. In my opinion, the term is really more accurate, as the tips on 'White' hair are really more of a creamy white than a silver.
European White: this is a grade below the HMW, but is still a 'White' (i.e., silvertip) hair. Plisson describes it as having nearly all of the qualities of HMW, but not quite as white or luminous (their term). We can equate this with more common silvertips found in high end Simpson Supers (e.g., my Chubby 3), or possibly Vulfix Finest.
European Gray: This can be equated to Simpson Best grade. The term 'gray' refers to the fact that the tips are a gray-tan. This is the best solution I can think of for the confusion of the term silvertip. Insofar as Best hair actually looks more silvery than does actual silvertip, a lot of people use this to defend labeling Best grade as silvertip. Plisson does the smart thing, and calls it gray, taking its color into account, but taking the term silver out of the nomenclature completely.
Chinese Gray: A bit darker than European Gray. This can be likened to Pure hair that is lighter in color than dark Pure, but not as light as Best. Plisson says the Chinese hair is more plentiful in supply, and thus less expensive.
Pure Black: On the opposite end of the spectrum from White, this is a very dark grade of Pure badger.
Thus, we can distill the Plisson system down to three essential gradges, based on appearance: White, Gray and Black. Within the Whites and Grays, there are two grade distinctions to allow for fine differences. I find this system to be more fine-tuned, and accurate. It also helps that Plisson honors it by keeping their brushes consistent with their labels.
High Mountain White: The best of the best - not to be confused with Best. Hairs in this grade are taken only from badgers that live above a certain elevation (ostensibly above the snowline), and thus develop lighter hairs. We can equate HMW with ultra-high-end silvertip, such as Extra Super, or possibly Rooney's Finest, only I would say the stuff Plisson has is in a class by itself. I don't know how they get their hands on it to the exclusion of everyone else. The term 'White' is an older one, that used to be used synonymously with silvertip, to describe hair that is white at the tips, and black in the shaft. In my opinion, the term is really more accurate, as the tips on 'White' hair are really more of a creamy white than a silver.
European White: this is a grade below the HMW, but is still a 'White' (i.e., silvertip) hair. Plisson describes it as having nearly all of the qualities of HMW, but not quite as white or luminous (their term). We can equate this with more common silvertips found in high end Simpson Supers (e.g., my Chubby 3), or possibly Vulfix Finest.
European Gray: This can be equated to Simpson Best grade. The term 'gray' refers to the fact that the tips are a gray-tan. This is the best solution I can think of for the confusion of the term silvertip. Insofar as Best hair actually looks more silvery than does actual silvertip, a lot of people use this to defend labeling Best grade as silvertip. Plisson does the smart thing, and calls it gray, taking its color into account, but taking the term silver out of the nomenclature completely.
Chinese Gray: A bit darker than European Gray. This can be likened to Pure hair that is lighter in color than dark Pure, but not as light as Best. Plisson says the Chinese hair is more plentiful in supply, and thus less expensive.
Pure Black: On the opposite end of the spectrum from White, this is a very dark grade of Pure badger.
Thus, we can distill the Plisson system down to three essential gradges, based on appearance: White, Gray and Black. Within the Whites and Grays, there are two grade distinctions to allow for fine differences. I find this system to be more fine-tuned, and accurate. It also helps that Plisson honors it by keeping their brushes consistent with their labels.
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JackieMartling
Chris, finally an easy question. My CH3 Super is very stiff; it isn't necessarily unpleasant, but it really is its own trip. The HMW is softer, no question, but still maintains resiliency in the core. Between the two, the HMW is easily more pleasurable, if by pleasurable you mean soft and luxurious feeling. It's as luxurious feeling as Simpson Best (Gray), but has more "muscle" like the CH Super. That's why I like this hair grade so much.
You're going to find out for yourself soon enough, though, aren't you?
Nathan
You're going to find out for yourself soon enough, though, aren't you?
Nathan
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JackieMartling
Chris, what did you decided on? The Plisson #18 or #20 and why?fisherc wrote:Nathan:
Yes, yes I am. I am looking forward to it as well. Just looking for reassurance that this $500 bunch of badger hair is worth it.
Chis
-Greg-
Facing the truth requires that we retain an ongoing openness to the possibility that we may not be seeing ourselves--or others--accurately.
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Sam
- M'Learned Friend
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- Contact:
nathan: i am like chris, in that i sure would want to make sure that a $300 brush is different, and better, than the $200 brush we can get from shavemac or vulfix or kent. with rooney, some of the brushes are said to have plugs, i think, in their super line. if the only thing that differentiates is the bristle,then i have to ask myself if say $100 more for the finest is worth it, and what would i get for that? i know it has been said many times that the price difference is not going to get you even a noticeable difference in performance.
so, how does the HMV, the EG, and the EW compare as far as prickliness, tendency to splay like a soft moppish brush or keep its shape like the shavemacs, water and heat retention, etc, etc.
if the EG is like simpsons best, what kinda prices are we looking at? i just dont know more than a handful of guys who have the plisson, so i would love comments
sam
so, how does the HMV, the EG, and the EW compare as far as prickliness, tendency to splay like a soft moppish brush or keep its shape like the shavemacs, water and heat retention, etc, etc.
if the EG is like simpsons best, what kinda prices are we looking at? i just dont know more than a handful of guys who have the plisson, so i would love comments
sam
Greg:
I decided against the #20. For me and my personal preferences it's just too big. I have access to both a #16 and a #18 and have yet to decide which I want. I have to decide by tomorrow. I am leaning towards the #18 though these days I am appreciating the "control" element a smaller brush provides.
Chris
I decided against the #20. For me and my personal preferences it's just too big. I have access to both a #16 and a #18 and have yet to decide which I want. I have to decide by tomorrow. I am leaning towards the #18 though these days I am appreciating the "control" element a smaller brush provides.
Chris
Gentlemen,
You know very well that a brush like the famous Plisson is NOT that better than other brushes around the price-range of let's say about a $100,-; thats simply NOT true.
However, there's nothing against sheer self-indulgence; driving a Rolls-Royce is the same thing more or less.......
Peter
You know very well that a brush like the famous Plisson is NOT that better than other brushes around the price-range of let's say about a $100,-; thats simply NOT true.
However, there's nothing against sheer self-indulgence; driving a Rolls-Royce is the same thing more or less.......
Peter
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JackieMartling
Peter, I'm assuming you're referring to the point of diminishing returns that we have discussed in the past - that, from a standpoint of performance, once you hit the Vulfix Super and Kent BK range, you're not going to see a whole lot of improvement for your buck. Back when I had only my Kent BK8, I said that was all I needed. I used to say the other people can drive Rolls and Bentleys; I'm fine with my moderately priced BMW. Then I got a Simpson CH3, just because, and it was all over. Admittedly, my shave and my lathering wasn't disctinctly better with the Chubby, but I loved the dense knot and the overall quality feeling I had using it that seemed to be lacking in the BK8. I think this is more than just wanting to believe the Simpson was better because I paid more for it. I acknowledged my shave quality didn't improve. However, I could see ways the Simpson was just a better brush, and in those ways, I felt my shave experience had improved. Even so, it was still pretty stiff, and really big, so then I got a PL10 Best, and at the same time bought a HMW that was for sale on Wetshavers for a really good price. Those two brushes really solidified it for me in terms of why we pay these kinds of prices. There is a level of quality and craftsmanship in these brushes that I just didn't see in the Kent, and I preferred them to the Kent. I don't see it exactly as snob appeal, although there may be an element of that in the mix. I just like the characteristics of these brushes. That HMW is really something else, in my opinion - quite unlike any other hair grade I've used; although Simpson's Best comes in a good second. Both are nicer than the hair in my BK8. So, in my opinion, from one standpoint they're not better than a high-end Vulfix or Kent, but in another way they are.
Nathan
Nathan
Nathan,
I really see no differences in neither performance nor "feel" between my Plisson #20 and my Shavemacs; the latter do really feel the same referring at softness, stiffness etcetera; and two of my Shavemacs are in the around $100,- range; actually i was referring to these brushes, i should have been more specific;
regarding construction the Shavemacs look most like Plisson brushes; the biggest difference is the large shaft lenght of the Plissons; but both have a lightbulb shape, Shavemac more pronounced than Plisson.
Peter
I really see no differences in neither performance nor "feel" between my Plisson #20 and my Shavemacs; the latter do really feel the same referring at softness, stiffness etcetera; and two of my Shavemacs are in the around $100,- range; actually i was referring to these brushes, i should have been more specific;
regarding construction the Shavemacs look most like Plisson brushes; the biggest difference is the large shaft lenght of the Plissons; but both have a lightbulb shape, Shavemac more pronounced than Plisson.
Peter
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JackieMartling
I'm sure Plisson wouldn't want to hear that, although it's good news for people who like Shavemacs, and/or don't want to spend the money on a Plisson. I haven't used a Shavemac, as I've said a number of times, but based on the pictures I've seen of ones that have actually been used, they really do open up quite a bit. It's the short hairs on the side that keep them from being so voluminous as more fan-shaped brushes. The smaller HMW I have has held its shape beautifully, and doesn't seem to have opened up as much; the side hairs go up at pretty steep angles, whereas the side hairs on the Shavemacs seem to go out almost sideways. But you certainly have more experience in this realm than I, so I will defer to your opinion on it.
Nathan
Nathan
some great plissons here (collectors items)..http://razorland55.free.fr/blaireau.htm
Last edited by merkurman on Sun Dec 18, 2005 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.