Coticule only?

Chap · Post by **Chap** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:44 am

Morning gents, I was wondering if the more experienced here could lend me their brains for a dalliance into the realms of honing.

I own a couple of razors (a 6/8 Timor, and a giant 8/8 Zwilling), both NOS and came to me honed. I know they need and deserve the ministrations of a sharpening stone, but, being of limited financial means, was trying to find a more economic way to sharpen them.

Could one use a coticule and a coticule only? My gleanings from the intertubes lead me to believe a coticule is a fine finisher due to the obtuse nature of its garnet abrasives, which impart a shallow scratch pattern and hence, a smooth shaving edge. Now obviously, a dull razor needs a lot of metal removed, and this would take an age on a coticule, but if I were to redress them at regular and fairly frequent intervals, might this hurdle be bypassed?

By never letting them get too dull, I hope to forgo the stages of bevel setting major blade work etc, and instead focus on getting a nice, sharp edge. This has the secondary benefit of keeping my razors in a state close to optimal sharpness at all times, which can only improve my shaving.

Post by **drmoss_ca** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 5:07 am

You can do this, especially if you dilute your slurry as you go along. But the finest edge you can get from a coticule alone will not be sharp enough for some people - tastes vary, and if you like the shave go for it. I would want to do something with a finer grit stone after the coticule.

Chris

Chap · Post by **Chap** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 5:17 am

Thanks for the input, any suggestions as to a stone to use after the coticule? Could I use the coticule and then a pasted strop(which paste though?)?

Post by **drmoss_ca** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 5:37 am

Finishing stones could be a Chinese 12k, a Shapton 15/16k, a Shapton 30k, or a Spyderco UF. I even use a little exposure to a pasted strop after this, generally green chrome, but sometimes Flexcut Gold if I am unhappy with my honing.

Chris

loueedacat1 · Post by **loueedacat1** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:13 am

i've been happy with coticule as finisher, but you can get sharper. I was always happy with it till I got an escher, and now I often crave that extra bit. So maybe just buy the coticule and don't let yourself try something better so you never miss it!

another choice would be a naniwa 12k which Lyn Abrams raves about and is pretty economical - chekc our straightrazordesigns.com. I haven't tried it but many have and say it's great.

Dave_D · Post by **Dave_D** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:51 pm

The Sheffield razors seem to shave really well straight off the coticule and a good stroping. The TIs and Le Grelot on the other hand dont seem to shave at their best until finishing on something finer.
Don't know why this is, but thats been my experience so far.

loueedacat1 · Post by **loueedacat1** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:15 pm

I think alot depends on skill level and whether you are having a good day, until you get really good and consistent (which I sure haven't). I've been delighted with the edge I've gotten on my Le Grelot off a coticule, and completely unsatisfied other times. I think the variable is me.

If you give Dr. Moss or El Alamein a coticule and a razor of choice, the results might be better than what you'd get from a shapton 30k in say my hands.

Chap · Post by **Chap** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:02 pm

Lots to think about here. One of my reasons for trying to get away with a coticule only, is the ease of getting one, where as finding a Japanese water stone in the UK seems somewhat harder (not least because of the interference from Her Majesty's Crooks and Extortionists). Finding other natural stones like a Charnley Forest or an Arkansas is equally challenging.

Do any of the UK members know where I could find a good finishing stone without having to ship it over the pond?

Thanks for all the help so far.

Edit; I am going to buy a coticule, and see if I find the edge acceptable, further aquisitions will have to wait in the wings.

EL Alamein · Post by **EL Alamein** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:27 pm

Chap wrote:Lots to think about here. One of my reasons for trying to get away with a coticule only, is the ease of getting one, where as finding a Japanese water stone in the UK seems somewhat harder (not least because of the interference from Her Majesty's Crooks and Extortionists). Finding other natural stones like a Charnley Forest or an Arkansas is equally challenging.

Do any of the UK members know where I could find a good finishing stone without having to ship it over the pond?

Thanks for all the help so far.

Edit; I am going to buy a coticule, and see if I find the edge acceptable, further aquisitions will have to wait in the wings.

If you're going to get a coticule and it be your only stone for a while then I would recommend the "Bart Method" which is the one coticule honing method. It can be found here.

I found it easy to master and it does produce consistent results. Remember though that it's a method that is adaptable and therefore you won't be able to follow it exactly as it's written but will have to increase strokes if/as necessary.

It's not the only path to Rome by any means and there are easier ways to get there but if you're only going to use a coticule then this will be instructive.

Hope that helps.

Chris

Chap · Post by **Chap** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:04 pm

Perfect, exactly what I was looking for.

At first, reading the method, it seemed mad (ruining the edge on purpose?!), but the more I read of his explanation, the more lucid the picture became. His application of tape halfway through the process is particularly ingenious.

Thank you very much for all the help so far. Expect a thread soon along the lines of "HELP! I've ruined my razor/hone/face!!"

Percypurps · Post by **Percypurps** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:54 pm

If you're still looking for an alternative polishing stone that is available in the UK then you can get a Chinese 12000 grit Polishing Stone from http://www.rutlands.co.uk/hand-tools/sh ... -polishing

The Spyderco Ultrafine stone should be available in the UK if you do an iternet search for it.

Other options include the Welsh Dragon's Tongue hone available from the Inigo Jones Slateworks in Wales (also available from the UK based ebay merchant MillersMilitaria who also stocks Thuringen stones,) and the Scots Water of Ayr Stone from the Tam O Shanter Honeworks. Technically the Scots quarry is still operational, although they don't have a website you should be able to find their contact details on SRP as one member use to sell their stones. The major problem in dealing with them is that they are more than a little difficult to get hold of ( ie they never answer the f******* phone, I've lost count of the number of times I've tried.) Both the DT and the WOA, are dark coloured, hard and fine grained, slow-cutting hones in the 8-10k grit range. They're a step up from the 8K side of a Norton, but if you have a Coticule you're happy with they might not be an improvement.

There is a Charnley Forest stone for sale here http://www.oldtools.free-online.co.uk/LIST17.htm item MS001, about halfway down the page. I have a couple of Charnley hones, including one which I am pretty sure is from the preferred Whittle Hill Quarry. They range in cutting speed from quite slow to frustratingly slow. However the edge they provide is exceptionally good, and I wouldn't consider selling mine. The main problem with them is the variability in grit and hardness and the fact that if they have been used and abused in the past they're very difficult to bring back from the dead.

Other UK stones that you might find in antiques shops include Cambrock Silkstones (for imparting a smooth cutting edge to razors and surgical instruments according to the box,) Cutler's Green Hone from Snowdonia ( a stone that is so hard and close grained that it can only be used for putting the final edge on scalpels and other surgical instruments according to the old Geology textbooks,) Devon Oilstones (reportedly good, but never widely distributed,) Magic Hone ( sold as an alternative to the Belgian Coticule,) Oxford Sanstone ( described as very consistent) and Welsh Clearing Stones.

Re: using only the coticule, like many I viewed the coticule solely as a finishing stone until I read the many excellent posts by Bart exploring the versatility of the Coticule. Given the variability of natural stones some will be more suitable for final polishing (the harder ones) whereas softer stones with heavy slurry can remove a surprisingly large amount of metal. Another gentleman who posted under the username of LX Emergency on SRP also made a video of using the same coticule from bevel setting to final polishing, so this might be worth looking for. A DMT diamond stone is an excellent choice for raising slurry from a coticule and thus increasing it's versatility.

Kindest regards,
Alex

Chap · Post by **Chap** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:39 pm

Such a comprehensive post, thank you very much. I must admit, I am somewhat more attracted towards natural stones for whatever reason.

Edit; Do you know of any shops/markets in London that may carry such items? Most of the antique stores I see carry heinously expensive furniture and little else.

EL Alamein · Post by **EL Alamein** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:06 pm

Chap wrote:Perfect, exactly what I was looking for.

At first, reading the method, it seemed mad (ruining the edge on purpose?!), but the more I read of his explanation, the more lucid the picture became. His application of tape halfway through the process is particularly ingenious.

Thank you very much for all the help so far. Expect a thread soon along the lines of "HELP! I've ruined my razor/hone/face!!"

I never used tape prior to testing his method. I find it to be a very good practice.

As an aside his method works without needing to dull the blade at all. If the blade is already shave-ready then just apply the tape to the spine and start to cut that secondary bevel.

The resulting edge is not as sharp as some methods but the razor quite sharp enough to get the job done comfortably. And it is ever so mild on the skin. This is something that I really like about coticules as I have sensitive skin. Keep the angle of the razor very steep while shaving and you shouldn't have too much trouble adapting to the edge.

Hope that helps.

Chris

matt321 · Post by **matt321** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:08 pm

You can get Naniwa Superstones here (Munster):
http://www.rasurpur.de/english/shop/shop.html

Percypurps · Post by **Percypurps** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:39 am

Chap wrote:Such a comprehensive post, thank you very much. I must admit, I am somewhat more attracted towards natural stones for whatever reason.

Edit; Do you know of any shops/markets in London that may carry such items? Most of the antique stores I see carry heinously expensive furniture and little else.

I'm afraid I've never had much luck locating razors or hones, although I've found the odd gem amongst the chipped and rusted straights and the grime encrusted hones that are all too common. I live in the heart of the Oxfordshire/ Cotswolds region which is supposedly one of the antique hotspots in the UK, but razor/ hone wise I must admit to being less than impressed with what I've found. I've also tried a lot of shops around Sheffield, and didn't find a single razor

I know what you mean about the hideously expensive antique furniture shops, still the look of horror that often comes across the faces of the staff when you ask if they have any razors is worth more than anything they might be selling.

The best places seem to be the antique centres where they rent out cabinet space to individual sellers. I've always found razors in every shop of this type that I have been to, most of the razors are too far gone to be of any real value unfortunately.

If you don't mind travelling, there is an antique tool shop in the village of Moreton-in-Marsh, they did have some unlabelled stones last I was in there but I didn't have time to look properly.

Kindest regards,
Alex

Post by **ichabod** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:45 am

I'm hardly experienced, but I'm on the coticule only kick at the moment. In terms of keeping razors shave worthy - I've touched up my Dovo that was originally sharpened by Lynn, and while I'm sure it could be better in more experienced hands I have no complaints.

Recently I got myself a W&B wedge from fleabay, and I have it approaching shave ready using only the coticule, but I used tons more laps than in the link Chris posted (and no pressure). I'm not sure I'd try another "restoration hone" job on the Coticule, I'd probably spring for a different hone to cut more metal per stroke. I like the look of the Bart technique in Chris' link though, and will probably give it a go at some point.

In terms of an even finer shaving edge I have pondered adding a pasted strop of some sort to my process after the coticule, but have been too cheap/lazy/insert adjective here to pursue it.

(The razor I got from Chris Moss redefined sharp for me, and I have yet to try to touch up the edge on my coticule or anything else).

Post by **drmoss_ca** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:43 pm

I have been surprised occasionally by a coticule's ability to make a sharp edge that had eluded me with other hones. This has been something I particularly recall with hard damascus steel. Nonetheless, the coticule remains a second line stone for me, to use when the usual suspects don't pan out.
However, whether you arrive at that point by coticule, Shapton, Norton or Spyderco, my current finishing regime/ touch-up for my own razors goes like this:

With one layer of electrical tape on the spine:
100 laps (ie 200 back and forths) on a DGLP-lapped Chinese 12k, with lather
40 laps on a DGLP-lapped Spyderco UF with lather
50 back and forth strokes (ie 25 "laps" - don't use that word on strops) on Flexcut Gold on an Illinois 827
50 strokes (etc) on HandAmerican Liquid Chrome on an Illinois 827
50 strokes (ditto) on Harborfreight White Polishing Compound on Illinois "canvas" (it's not linen)
Remove the layer of tape, then give:
50 strokes on a SRD "canvas" strop (it's not linen)
50 firm strokes on an SRD latigo strop, then 10 light strokes

Soak and soften the beard properly, stretch the skin tightly with fingers close to the site of cutting, shave with a very low angle (<30°) and short strokes, and you will get a with grain shave that will last the day in one pass. I do believe that technique is just as important as a sharp edge in getting this one-pass shave result. (Since I leave the house at 6.30am I have had to learn efficiency in shaving!) After the shave I do 30 strokes on the SRD "canvas" to dry the edge of the blade and help re-align it. Before the next shave I repeat the 50 firm/10 light on the SRD latigo. Using a seven day set, this is all I do until the quarterly touch-up as described above. To make it easy on my aged memory, the touch-up is done at each equinox and solstice. I don't think the angle of the earth's axis has anything to do with the results....

There. I've given away the secret! Well, one of them!

Chris

druphus · Post by **druphus** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:06 pm

drmoss_ca wrote:I have been surprised occasionally by a coticule's ability to make a sharp edge that had eluded me with other hones. This has been something I particularly recall with hard damascus steel. Nonetheless, the coticule remains a second line stone for me, to use when the usual suspects don't pan out.
However, whether you arrive at that point by coticule, Shapton, Norton or Spyderco, my current finishing regime/ touch-up for my own razors goes like this:

With one layer of electrical tape on the spine:
100 laps (ie 200 back and forths) on a DGLP-lapped Chinese 12k, with lather
40 laps on a DGLP-lapped Spyderco UF with lather
50 back and forth strokes (ie 25 "laps" - don't use that word on strops) on Flexcut Gold on an Illinois 827
50 strokes (etc) on HandAmerican Liquid Chrome on an Illinois 827
50 strokes (ditto) on Harborfreight White Polishing Compound on Illinois "canvas" (it's not linen)
Remove the layer of tape, then give:
50 strokes on a SRD "canvas" strop (it's not linen)
50 firm strokes on an SRD latigo strop, then 10 light strokes

Soak and soften the beard properly, stretch the skin tightly with fingers close to the site of cutting, shave with a very low angle (<30°) and short strokes, and you will get a with grain shave that will last the day in one pass. I do believe that technique is just as important as a sharp edge in getting this one-pass shave result. (Since I leave the house at 6.30am I have had to learn efficiency in shaving!) After the shave I do 30 strokes on the SRD "canvas" to dry the edge of the blade and help re-align it. Before the next shave I repeat the 50 firm/10 light on the SRD latigo. Using a seven day set, this is all I do until the quarterly touch-up as described above. To make it easy on my aged memory, the touch-up is done at each equinox and solstice. I don't think the angle of the earth's axis has anything to do with the results....

There. I've given away the secret! Well, one of them!

Chris

My gosh Chris! Do you recite any magical incantations during the process?

EL Alamein · Post by **EL Alamein** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:27 pm

druphus wrote:
drmoss_ca wrote:I have been surprised occasionally by a coticule's ability to make a sharp edge that had eluded me with other hones. This has been something I particularly recall with hard damascus steel. Nonetheless, the coticule remains a second line stone for me, to use when the usual suspects don't pan out.
However, whether you arrive at that point by coticule, Shapton, Norton or Spyderco, my current finishing regime/ touch-up for my own razors goes like this:

With one layer of electrical tape on the spine:
100 laps (ie 200 back and forths) on a DGLP-lapped Chinese 12k, with lather
40 laps on a DGLP-lapped Spyderco UF with lather
50 back and forth strokes (ie 25 "laps" - don't use that word on strops) on Flexcut Gold on an Illinois 827
50 strokes (etc) on HandAmerican Liquid Chrome on an Illinois 827
50 strokes (ditto) on Harborfreight White Polishing Compound on Illinois "canvas" (it's not linen)
Remove the layer of tape, then give:
50 strokes on a SRD "canvas" strop (it's not linen)
50 firm strokes on an SRD latigo strop, then 10 light strokes

Soak and soften the beard properly, stretch the skin tightly with fingers close to the site of cutting, shave with a very low angle (<30°) and short strokes, and you will get a with grain shave that will last the day in one pass. I do believe that technique is just as important as a sharp edge in getting this one-pass shave result. (Since I leave the house at 6.30am I have had to learn efficiency in shaving!) After the shave I do 30 strokes on the SRD "canvas" to dry the edge of the blade and help re-align it. Before the next shave I repeat the 50 firm/10 light on the SRD latigo. Using a seven day set, this is all I do until the quarterly touch-up as described above. To make it easy on my aged memory, the touch-up is done at each equinox and solstice. I don't think the angle of the earth's axis has anything to do with the results....

There. I've given away the secret! Well, one of them!

Chris
My gosh Chris! Do you recite any magical incantations during the process?

Yes, I believe he does. He chants:

The power of the Chronik compels you!
The power of the Chronik compels you!
The power of the Chronik compels you!

. . . or so I've suspected.

loueedacat1 · Post by **loueedacat1** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:07 am

EL Alamein wrote:
druphus wrote:
My gosh Chris! Do you recite any magical incantations during the process?
Yes, I believe he does. He chants:

The power of the Chronik compels you!
The power of the Chronik compels you!
The power of the Chronik compels you!

. . . or so I've suspected.

El, be careful about putting that chant in a post. The hair on my legs fell off when I read it.